- You're listening to "The Gathering", a podcast for artists and creatives from Arts Lancashire. I'm Alex O'Toole, and this is episode four of series two. This season is all about remaking and remodeling the role and work of artists and creatives in a COVID world, and the practicalities of creating and delivering at a distance. We talk about working within the new restrictions, where the opportunities are, how to rip up the rule book, and why it's more important than ever to ensure that our artistic practice, our places and spaces, and opportunities to make and participate, are consistently inclusive and representative. In this episode, we're joined by Kit Abramson, interim CEO of Ludus Dance, one of Lancashire's National Portfolio Organizations. Not long after the pandemic began, Ludus Dance made the decision to give up the building that they had been based in for 40 years, to reinvent themselves as a mobile practice, delivering remotely, and in residence within community spaces around Lancashire and Cumbria. Our conversation focuses on the reasons behind their decision making, and the impact of the move on their organization, their participants, and their audiences. We talk about the practical implications and the big picture opportunities. We explore how much of our identities as artists are wrapped into the places we practice within, and the possibilities that come into being when you dare to rip up the rule book and choose a different way to deliver. Whether you're an independent artist, or an arts organization, this episode is a fantastic insight into what happens when you take risks, and change your perspective on how you could and should make work. - I'm Kit Abramson. I'm interim CEO of Ludus Dance. We're an organization based in Lancaster, but we work across Lancashire and parts of South Cumbria. - So Kit, you have recently made a really big decision for Ludus. What was that big decision? - We have decided to move out of our beautiful listed building, to work remotely, and base ourselves in the heart of the community. So it's a big, big leap from being in an amazing assembly rooms, in the center of Lancaster, to thinking about how we can do that differently, and what we want to be as an organization, and how we reach people. - So that's a pretty huge decision. So just for the purposes of the listeners, can you just describe the space that you have had? 'Cause you've been there since the 1980s, is that right? - Yeah, that's right. So it's a gorgeous building, an old assembly hall, so where people used to dance and listen to bands, to raise money for the arms houses, which were next door. So it's a place with a great deal of history and connection to enjoyment of the arts. It's right in the center of Lancaster, and it's been very well known and well loved by the community in Lancaster for several years. As you're gonna go into the the building, it's got a really grand staircase, slightly dilapidated, but it has got that kind of former grandeur about it, with a huge wooden floor, which we've covered with vinyl, for ease of dancing. Really ornate lamps, and huge big sash windows on one side, which fill the room with space and light. And there's also a subsidiary, smaller studio and a reception area, for parents to wait. - So it sounds beautiful, and obviously I've visited there, but I don't think I've actually been into the studio spaces. What sort of things did you host there then? - So there's open weekly classes for children. There was youth talent development sessions for those kids who really had the potential to make it as choreographers or dancers, or generally really invested in creative children. Then there were closed group sessions for vulnerable groups, such as small groups of children and young people who are experiencing grief, so they were very well-managed. They're in a very safe space, usually in the evenings. We also had space to offer for emerging artists, who wanted to try out new ideas, and pieces of work to rehearse, and for us to give them some creative feedback on the work, as it developed. And then we had a host of commercial offerings, such as birthday parties, or wedding dances, and general hire of the space by other groups for things like yoga, or old people's dance groups as well, there was quite a bit of that. - Everything under the sun, really, connected to dance, and it was all happening in that space. So at a time when so many other organizations are desperately trying to keep hold of their buildings, what prompted you to make the decision to give yours up, after you've been there for so long? - I think it was two fold really. At the time of lockdown, this decision was made relatively quickly, and that was based on whether we wanted to invest our money in the building, which as a listed building is incredibly draining on resources. Do we want to spend our money on a building, or do we want to spend it on connecting children and young people, and moving children and young people. So the connection, the social aspect, the activity, the actual services to our core beneficiaries, because we are a charity, and that's what we needed to do. We needed to keep young people active and connected. There was also quite a lot of restraints that we would put ourselves under by keeping the building open, during COVID. So this real logistical mapping, really, of how we could actually still work within the COVID restrictions, with the three meter distance at the time, which was there between participants or dancers in the space, and still make it viable. So it's a combination of a lot of different things, but the main driving thing was actually wanting to be back out in the heart of the community, and removing those walls, really, removing the barriers to provision, and making sure that the dance and the connection to young people were still possible, removing restraints, really, and keeping going. - Keeping going, yeah, well, I was just gonna say, was it a decision that you'd considered before? Because obviously, I mean, I've worked with you guys, and I know how much you do in the community. So was it something that had been in the back of your mind for a while, and COVID tipped it over the edge? Or was it something that you hadn't really considered, and then COVID really highlighted a need to do something different? - Well, I think almost contrary to popular belief about Ludus is that we do so much of our work outside of the building in outreach settings, in hospitals, or in care homes, or community settings and in schools. So actually it's only one small fraction of the work that we did was actually within the building itself. So there has been, for a number of years, that ongoing debate really of whether the building is a necessity, and also how fit for purpose it was. So as a listed building, for instance, it's very hard to have disabled access, because there's no place to put a lift, and the lift, the existing lift doesn't actually accommodate heavy wheelchairs, modern contemporary wheelchairs. So there have been issues which have brought into light whether we should remain in that building or not. Plus there have been other developments within Lancaster city itself, about an area called the Canal Quarter, which is still in progress and in consultation, about a cultural quarter of the town. So there have been those discussions, it's not come out of the ether, as you will. I think it was a case of, if we're going to do it, now is a really good time to do it. - Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. So obviously, there are lots of organizations in Lancashire that have a building, that they program, they've been in for a long time. Coming out of your building, what do you think that's gonna do to your identity as an organization? How do you think it's gonna make you feel about what you are and how you do what you do? Because so much of our identities, as arts organizations, are wrapped in with the communities that we serve, and the places and locations that they are in. So what do you think will happen to Ludus' identity, as a result of not having a building? - Well, I think my advice to arts organizations would be to check that their identity is what they think it is, within the community. So we did a piece of research with some MA students at Lancaster university, and they were literally stood outside Ludus Dance, asking people if they'd heard of Ludus Dance, whether they'd ever attended, whether they'd send their kids there, and what did they want from dance provision. - Was this before you made the decision? - Yeah, so it was probably over a year ago, really, whilst we were looking at numbers of children who are attending weekly classes, and wanting to improve upon those numbers. And the results, the findings were quite interesting, really, because what we were hearing was that parents wanted to send their children just on the open sessions that we've got. They wanted to send their children to dance classes, which were in the community, so that they didn't have to travel into a city. Ease and convenience were the main major factors in making a dance class attendance viable and easy for them to do. So if there is a class on your doorstep, you are much more likely to send your child to that class. And if there is parking, which we don't have, you are much more likely to do that, and if you don't have to fight with the one way system. So by actually just being geographically present where we were, it was actually creating more barriers that we could remove. So in terms of those open sessions, we're now looking at those being in public parts, out in residential locations, and that is adapting to the changing face of Lancaster itself, as it's become less family residential right in the center, and acknowledging that those things have to change. Some people who were surveyed, right outside Ludus Dance itself, didn't even know what Ludus Dance was, even though they were right in front of the sign. So I think again, that sense of image is like, well, actually, if you see what we do, out in different environments, then you'll understand it more. So that's kind of, in terms of image, that's one of the things that we've been trialing and testing over the summer, and the autumn, in terms of some of the youth of talent development sessions being in different locations, in public spaces, and we've had very different responses in very different areas. So this process that we're going through at the moment is very much about learning what those reactions are, and the impact, both in terms of growing a new audience, and on our reputation, is the thing that we're gathering feedback from. - Can you talk a bit more about that? Because on a practical level, how will you carry on doing all the different aspects of your work, and where will you do it? So you just mentioned there, for example, talent development. How's that worked? - The Ludus Youth Dance Company is for 14 to 21 year olds, and those are the kids who are on that journey towards becoming professionals, or at least have that vested interest. And rather than having the sessions in doors, in the venue, we've been taking them to places like Ryelands Park, Williamson's Park, and Devonshire Square in Morecambe. Devonshire Square in Morecambe is a very, very interesting experience. It's an area of deprivation, and when we set up there, we found that over 100 residents came out into their gardens, or watched from their houses-- - Really? - For at least 15 minutes, and positively commented, and were curious about what we were doing. And it was really affirming that we were actually making quite big impact in that area, because bringing it to them, rather than expecting people to come to us. And this is just presenting while developing work, and work in progress. Yeah, I think that was a real sense that actually this is something that we need to be doing. The opposite to that was when we took the same group to Williamson's park, which is in a more affluent area. Perhaps more tourists go there. And I think really what we were finding there is nobody really stopped. They were probably more accepting and more familiar with youth dance anyway, and it was sort of seen as a place where exercise and arts activity happens within groups. So it giving us a good gauge of where, even the things that we're already doing, can build audiences and have impact, just by changing the location. - It sounds like, I mean, and Devonshire Square, is that where More Music is? - It is, yeah. - Is it like the carpark area you're talking about? - It's right in front of More Music, and it's not actually a carpark, it's a garden square. - Wow, and how did the young people feel about rehearsing and performing in those spaces? - Well, they're incredibly adaptable and flexible. We thought there might be issues with rain, and not wanting them to get wet, or finding it abnormal, but they just feel like it's exactly what they want to do. We're trying to reposition the youth company as an outdoor company, and it's not come without a lack of consultation with them about where they perceive the future of the company going. As far as we're aware, there is no outdoor youth dance company, and they're excited about trying to make the most of the area in which we live, and responding to the site in which they rehearse and train. - That is genuinely a really exciting prospect. So how will that work as you go into the winter, and the weather starts to turn? How's that gonna work then? - Yeah, well that's a really good question. We're coming up against it. We're coming up against all things, even when the weather is nice, which it was on Saturday, for instance, the grass has grown so much in one of the parks that we went to, and obviously they're not necessarily gonna be cut when we want it to be. So there are huge challenges to outdoor working. The rain doesn't seem to be an issue, but surface is, so we're looking at matting that we can take with us, and basically how we become a nimble and mobile setup. In the very short term, we're looking at tarpaulins. In the longer term, I have a emerging idea of a community pavilion, which I'd like to explore. So for community use, not just for Ludus Dance, and that to be a real architectural point of significance. However, this is very, very emerging stages of that. - Sounds very exciting. And I assume, would you work with a community architect, or participative architect to get involved in that project? - Yeah. It would have to be right for the community as well. It wouldn't just be about what Ludus Dance needs. It has to be looked after and cared for by the community, and feel owned by a community. But in the meantime, we're also investigating what I'm kind of terming as an organizational residency, at Ryelands Primary School. So they have a great vision and a similar vision, if you like, for the indoor outdoor spaces. So they have working and education, so they have quite a lot of outdoor mini pavilions, if you will. Semi bus stations, semi band stands, covered band stands, and in a way, they're all set up for COVID restrictions, and almost as if they had imagined the pandemic months before, have pods for parents, sheds for parents to sit in, and an area that we could perhaps tent and canopy. So we are looking at those as solutions for some of the regular sessions as well. - Sounds like a great way to build up different types of partnerships. - Yeah, well exactly, trying to embed ourselves in the heart of a community, aligned with a school, in an area of deprivation. There's a number of different ways of working, that we're trialing and testing, and in a way it's a kind of, let's see what is the most successful, and where we want to invest most in. And until we do that, and again, a lot of that is all the open sessions. The open sessions and the talent development sessions. That's only one strand of the work. The rest will be working in partner venues, and we're continuing to work online and in hospitals. So the ways in which we work are multifaceted already. - Yeah. Yeah, it sounds really, really interesting, and you're definitely in for a period of real research, aren't you? So just to go back to the time when you actually came up with the idea of getting rid of your building and becoming, how would you describe yourself now then? Just as an aside question. - It's a good question. Maybe remote and nimble and mobile. - Okay, okay. - I perhaps need to work on that statement. - Yeah, you need your one-liner. Yeah. Okay, so once that germ of an idea took form in your mind, can you just talk us through, a little bit, what happened next? You obviously came up with the idea, from looking at everything and doing all the research. Did you then go to the board? You're a National Portfolio Organization as well, so at what point did you have to get Arts Council involved? And how did you get them on board with the idea? Because we talked about ripping up the rule book, and this is definitely what you've done. - Yeah, I mean, a further layer of complication is that the a change in leadership, so it's the same time as I became interim CEO, and in the final board meeting with the exiting CEO and myself, we started suggesting that this might be the way forward, given that most of our work is outside of the building, and really thinking about what our charitable purpose and mission is, which is to provide high quality arts for children and young people experiencing deprivation and disadvantage. And at that point in April, we were on complete lockdown, where everybody was socially and physically distant from each other. And the building, at that point, was a redundant building, a building that we couldn't use, but one that was still needed maintaining, and actually became a risk, because the maintenance of an empty building, through a pandemic, is a lot of work. So it was a kind of acknowledgement that because of prior discussions, which had happened before my time at Ludus as well, that it was a now or never situation. I think the board had heard this argument before, and decided that if we're going to do it, we're going to do it now. There was some in-depth conversations with Arts Council, but they were amazingly supportive, and understood that organizations need to adapt to the changing landscape, and also that our mission and vision for the organization hadn't changed. It's just the means by which we get those results were changing, and actually in an initiative and new way. So there hasn't been very much. There's been a lot acceptance, rather than challenge, at this moment, that it is the right thing for us to do, and that through the grape vine as well, that other larger organizations are considering leaving their buildings as well, and that might be a great way forward to reimagine the way that you work. - Well I mean, obviously you've definitely been agile and the speed at which you've managed to achieve it is phenomenal, but I think the situation with COVID and the pandemic, it's requiring that people act very decisively and quickly. And I think, certainly in the arts, and particularly funded organizations, can be in a position where they feel they've got to overanalyze every single thing, before they make move, and people haven't been able to do that this time, and I think actually it's worked, certainly in Ludus' favor, in this instance. So it will be interesting to see if there are any others that take that brave step, that completely blows open how you've previously worked, how you previously thought about yourselves, I guess. So, in terms of the staff and some of the partners that you work with and new audiences, were they all as accepting as well? - There's definitely been some questioning from staff. Are we doing the right thing? But the length of COVID, the fact that it is still here, that we're still encouraged to work remotely, and the capacity of the organization. We're classed as a micro organization. We're less than three FTE, so the management of a building, which would be open to the public under COVID restrictions, which just swamp us, as an organization. So I think we're all very much behind the fact that we're leaving the building, and see it as a positive step forward, because it's so aligns to where the future vision of the organization is headed. - It sounds like you need that flexibility, just from a resource point of view. - We do, we need the capacity within the organization, to ensure the longevity, really. - Yeah, I mean, we're all in this situation where many of us are still working from home, and perhaps our teams are distributed. Has that been difficult? Or has that created opportunities for Ludus? - I think what it's done for certain aspects has been really freeing, so for instance, board meetings, which are done virtually, just because of where we are geographically, and where our trustees are based, that's just compressed travel time down, so it also means that our board could potentially become a lot more diverse, with voices from across the UK. So we'll be keeping that up. In terms of the remote working, we were quite good, a couple of years ago, about 18 months ago, of getting everything cloud-based anyway, and having internet phones. So in many ways, the transition to working remotely wasn't that difficult, and working within our own homes. We're also very close knit group of staff, who trust each other and work well together. I think there are going to be issues in the future, with any team that work remotely, in the fact that whenever you have a new member of staff, the induction process will be particularly challenging, at any level, for that member of staff. So, at the moment, we're probably meeting up once a month, or more frequently, on a one-to-one basis, if we need to. But most things, even our finances, for instance, we've gone paperless. We've been able to find a solution to what happens to the post, and who's posting. - Yeah, that's such a practical thing, isn't it? That all of a sudden is a big thing. - Yeah, yeah. - Where'd you buy paper that you won't have anywhere to store? - Yeah, no, there are things like that. So we've found some practical solutions to that. We're using Hubdoc and Xero for our accounting, which just then helps our environmental sustainability, linking the two together, so that confidential information is still stored securely and not in people's homes. We've had to change contracts, to say that staff's places of work is now their homes, and we're now paying expenses to delivery site, even if we're going to Ludus to clear out the building. So there are quite a lot of practical considerations. - Yeah, these are the things that I think people don't realize how much work and attention is needed to make sure everything is point, and things are still being done in the way that they need and legally have to be done. So that's really interesting. And what you were saying about onboarding of new staff, it's funny how being remote has placed more emphasis and more value on what normally you might consider as being an arbitrary process, but that's going to be really important, and thinking about how you onboard those new staff, and what maybe games or things that you can do as a team to make sure that that new person feels included and is able to embed quickly. - Well, the team are experts in online games. - Of course. - Building those connections between people. So yes, I think you're dead right, when we have a new member of staff, I'll ask one of our excellent dance development officers to do some team building. - That's an opportunity, I think, for Ludus and other arts organizations, to look at how they could support that process, in other non-arts organizations, because there's going to be thousands of people in that position. How do you onboard new staff, when you might not see them from month to month? Yeah, so anyway, that's just another aside. So how do you think that this move and this new way of working will actually change the work of Ludus? Because I tend to think that when you have a building, you tend to program for that space, or you tend to make work that will work in that space. Now you haven't got those constraints, what do you think that will do for Ludus creatively? - Creatively, I think it gives us scope to be a bit more free, really, and responsive to where we are, to create a different sense of identity. The landscape that we live in, in Lancaster, we're right on the coast. We have gorgeous views of the Lake District to one side. and an industrial view of Heysham to another. We have the hills, we have the lakes, dales and coast. So I think there's opportunity there to really think about how youth dance takes shape, and also how the digital embeds and aligns with what we're doing. I think digital channels for digital production capture, edit, are gonna become much more key to us, because the normal outputs that we would be used to seeing, the large scale festivals, and full theaters, those kinds of central signature events that we used to do, are probably quite a long way off, really. They could be, well, they're gonna be at least six months off before we see any of those kinds of large gatherings. So investing in outdoor and how that aligns to digital, and a hybrid of the two is gonna be big changes, really. - That sounds really interesting. So you were quite quick to get on with delivering at a distance through, I think it was Whereby you were using, wasn't it? - Yeah. - Is there anything that you started doing during lockdown that you think that really worked, we're gonna continue with that? And was there anything that you started doing you thought, that's just not worked, we're gonna need to rethink? - So the online sessions with children with a SEND, they really worked better online than they did in the studio. I think that's largely because the building had barriers, as in even getting people who are not used to going into art institutions through the doors, it's difficult, whereas if you're taking work to their homes, through the power of screens and the internet, then you're mitigating some of those barriers. Those children with autism or noise sensitivity are already in a situation that they can control and adapt to their own needs, or leave when they want, so we're definitely keeping those up. Some of the research that I did about wearable technology, to think about how we could keep children and dancers distant from each other, that is now developing into a hackable, wearable device, which will trigger light and sound. So that's being progressed, that more creative choreographic work is starting to happen and take shape with the Health Innovation Center at Lancaster. - That sounds really interesting. So your participants would have some kind of wearable technology on them, that would help them maintain social distance. - Yeah, I mean that technology already exists, and bleeps or lights up when you get too close to somebody else, usually by radio frequency or Bluetooth, but we're try and see whether we can make a piece of work, a dance piece with the youth company, which works with that hack. - That sounds so cool. Be really interested to see that. So is that something you're particularly excited about for the future of Ludus? I mean, you're working with technology, you're working with outdoor spaces, young people, and it's a very moot point, at the moment, isn't it? It's very moot issue. - We need to progress digitally to be innovative, because the area that we live in doesn't necessarily have the same footfall as urban centers. So as part of an MPO, you are under pressure to have a regional and national profile. How can you do that when you don't necessarily have the physical bodies in space, partly due to COVID, partly due to where we are geographically. So I think the digital has allowed many arts organizations through lockdown to actually experience greater audience numbers than they would normally, and different ways of connecting people, who are geographically distant, together. - It's that a particular project, with the wearable technology? Is that like a research project that you're doing with Lancaster University? - Yep, we're just beginning on that at the moment, so very early formations of that. I mean another one in which the online has really helped is that we have a program called State of Flux, which is a musician, a filmmaker and a choreographer, who work with adolescents who are experiencing acute mental health needs, and they're resident patients in The Cove in Heysham. And we work with them in the hospital, but we also have a program of when they leave hospital, when they're discharged, we wanted a workshop program, which we had originally intended to run from our studios, so that there was continuity of experience, and we could make the most of the creativity that we inspired, and giving them a sense of self, and self-worth. And what we hadn't necessarily completely anticipated was within the hospital, these adolescents come from a very wide geographic spread, so that once they've been discharged, possibly to Newcastle or to Manchester, or further afield, that they wouldn't necessarily be able to attend our sessions, our community sessions at the building. So by putting them online, we're at least able to connect groups and provide ongoing support, that wouldn't necessarily have been possible, had we not come up with the mechanisms through lockdown, to be able to deliver online. - That's a really interesting point. You hear so much of that, that people from somewhere down south are sent up to a hospital or a care facility 200 miles away. It must be really, really difficult. That's been amazing that you've been able to continue that provision. Just going back to the mobile structure you mentioned, have you seen that done before? Is that something that you have? - There are examples within dance, such as the Big Dance Bus, which was part of the Cultural Olympiad, where a double-decker bus was taken from largely corporate car park to corporate car park, and a dance floor was rolled out, and a big canopy, and spectacular performances occurred. And there's things like the Art Caravan, which is just what it says on the tin. So there are a number of mobile examples, and in a way, it's akin to a mobile library, again, taking the work to people. So just, again, that's another avenue that we're beginning to explore, and in many ways, we haven't yet defined the scale of ambition for that mobile working. So for instance, at the moment, arguably, we are mobile working, because we're taking flags, and cordons, and music out to public parks, but at the moment, that's all in the back of a van. But it could become the point where it's a van, which is fit for purpose, which has internet, which has a generator, which is branded. We're just not sure right now, until we've done some more of the outdoor research. - Yeah, I think that's okay. You've got to test things, haven't you? Is there a longer term intention to align yourself with particular outdoor spaces? So you mentioned Devonshire Square in Morecambe, and Williamson Park. In the way that, for example, the Dukes have traditionally done their theater in the park each year, is that something that you're aiming for longer term? - I don't think it's really set. I think what we need to be doing is listening to the people who are coming, and where the impact is most. So if we were deciding between Devonshire Square, and Williamson's park, it would be Devonshire Square, because we're building that audience as we go. So there is a sense, I think, of newness and freshness, and bringing new experiences to new audiences, which is the driver, and also the sites in which we choose can alter, can shape the work which is created there. So if it was The Youth Company, for instance, and we wanted to employ a choreographer, who very interested in redundant spaces. We may, for instance, connect with the Grange Lido group, who are trying to revive that, and just build those connections and partnerships, to the advantages of the young people, the partners who have a campaign, and which is in keeping with the choreographic practice of the person that we were working with, 'cause then I think it's really special. These spaces would be, are unique to where we are, and we're not competing with urban youth dance companies, in that respect. - It just sounds so exciting. I just think there's so many opportunities, and as you say, it will encourage more people to get involved with the organization, and see how they can connect. And it's happening because you've dared to come out of the space that you've been in for 40 years. Amazing. So just before we finish, do you want to tell us a little bit about anything that you've got coming up, where people can come and see you, and how they can get in touch with you, now that they can't knock on your door? That kind of thing. - Yeah. Well we've still got our website and our emails, and we've still got the same phone number. We're also out and about every Saturday morning, and Wednesday evenings, delivering youth dance, open sessions. We have work within schools, so we'll be sharing some of that soon. Nature of Dance is an outdoor program of work, celebrating nature, so if there are schools out there, you want to get involved in that, they can get in touch. - Is that primarily in Lancaster and Morecambe? Or is that across Lancashire and south? - It's across Lancashire and South Lakes, yeah. A lot of the work we do is with vulnerable groups, so it's not necessarily open access, but the main things to do is to keep abreast of developments on the newsletter, and let us know if you've got ideas or partnerships that you want to build, because we're-- - Open for it, yeah. I was just gonna say, now that people will have heard that you are looking and open to working in different types of spaces, are you open to people saying, come and do something here please? - Yeah, the discussion, the door is open. We're always willing to listen, to see whether we can find ways of making dance more available and accessible to young people. - Brilliant. Thanks Kit, that's so interesting. I hope it really goes well for you, and I'm gonna check back in, in a few months, see where you're up to. - Great, thanks Alex. - Thanks for listening to "The Gathering". If you liked this episode, let us know in the reviews, and don't forget to share it with your friends. For show notes, links to all the organizations and initiatives mentioned in this episode, and much more, head over to www.artslancashire.org.uk/thegathering. You can also follow us on Twitter at Arts Lancashire.