- You're listening to "The Gathering." A podcast for artists and creatives from Arts Lancashire. I'm Alex O'Toole, and this is episode one of series two. This season is all about remaking and remodelling the role and work of artists and creatives in a COVID world, and the practicalities of creating and delivering at a distance. We talk about working within the new restrictions, where the opportunities are, how to rip up the rule book, and why it's more important than ever to ensure that our artistic practice of places and spaces, and opportunities to make and participate are consistently inclusive and representative. For this episode, I'm joined by Tina Redford, Artistic Director at LeftCoast, an Arts Council England Creative People and Places project in Blackpool and Wyre. And Paul Hartley, Director of In-Situ, a National Portfolio Organisation based in Pendle in East Lancashire. Tina and Paul work on a hyper local level, embedding arts and culture deep within their respective communities. Their work is vital and enriching, helping to make those small shifts and profound changes. Yet the pandemic has given them no option but to rethink how they create and share cultural experiences with the people on their doorsteps. In today's episode, we talk about how COVID-19 has impacted on their delivery and the communities they work with. We consider more deeply how to access those who can't access the internet. We discuss what's worked and what hasn't, and debate what the future might hold for socially engaged arts. - I'm Tina Redford. I'm the Artistic Director of LeftCoast, and we're a small arts organisation that works across Blackpool and Wyre, and we're mainly funded by Arts Council England as a Creative People and Places programme. But we do get some money from the National Community Lottery Fund, as well. What that means is, is that we make work about people and place. so all of our work is co-created or co-curated with people at Blackpool and Wyre. - I'm Paul, I'm a founder/director of In-Situ. A company that started with two artist friends nearly eight years ago, nine years ago. We described ourselves as an embedded organisation, and that's just something the way that we talk about being here in Pendle, which is part of East Lancashire, or far East Lancashire, as we like to call sometimes. And initially, we were described as an artist labour organisation, but it's more complex than that now. But we are passionate about putting artists in collaboration, in conversation with communities in Pendle, and our work is about responding to Pendle as a place in a variety of different ways, through cohesion, intercultural activity, environment work, or anything that is key to helping to make this place grow. - Today, we're talking about the work of LeftCoast and the work of In-Situ, and your experiences over lockdown, and as we head into autumn under enhanced restrictions. But I thought it might be a good idea for first, to give you a bit of context to the world that we're all now living and working in, and offer up a few facts about how access to the internet affects our ability to participate with so much of life today. So, in August, the Office for National Statistics published their latest annual internet access report for 2020. And it revealed that in January and February, 96% of households in Great Britain, and that equates to 26.7 million people, had internet access. in Lancashire and South Cumbria, that number of households with internet access reduced to 86%, or 1.4 million people. And that means that there were 300,000 people in Lancashire and South Cumbria who did not have internet access when COVID hit, and when the country went into lockdown. And then the government adopted a digital-first strategy for its communication around coronavirus. So, those who did have the internet started to use it more, and Ofcom reported that in June, 2020, adults were spending a record four hours a day online on average. So, UK adults were now spending more than a quarter of their waking day online, and were using services like TikTok and Zoom, which were seeing unprecedented growth. And between January and April, Zoom grew by 2,000%, and I think that will have gone up much more by now. So, there are some crazy figures. So, what if you're one of the ones who doesn't have access to the internet, or who has access, but doesn't know how to use the tools, or doesn't have enough data, or enough bandwidth? So, that's really the context for our conversation today, but I thought before we sort of dived into that, I wonder if you could just both talk a little bit about the communities that you work with and how you've traditionally worked with them prior to lockdown. - So, community groups that we work with are the tenants on the estates of our core partners. So, a lot of the time we're working on whole side and their side in Blackpool, and on Flakefleet, and Wyre. So, what's really great about that, is that we're able to have artists in residence, as well, on the social housing estates. So, we can do some really intimate work where the artists are absolutely tenants first 'cause they're living there, but obviously they can be on the ground and in the neighbourhoods listening to people's concerns, but also exploring that environment with their neighbours, and having quite good follow on projects, whether they're green projects, or whether they're making projects. So, that works really small and intimate, and before COVID, we did a lot of tada 'cause it is Blackpool. So, we'd engage with communities to be part of festivals or large scale performances. But obviously, we've really had to rethink what we do, not just during COVID, but from now on because I think it's gonna be a long time before we can be doing Tram Sunday again, being part of a festival that's got 60,000 people in it. - Yeah, definitely. What about you, Paul? - Well, I mean, similar to Tina in some ways. I mean, when we first started In-Situ, it was kind of a response to kind of the idea that there wasn't a lot of activity going on. We're seen as an area there's not a lot of activity going on. And historically, artists were tended to be the last people to be brought into a conversation. We very simply wanted to flip it on its head and choose to work where we live, as well. So for us, it was about that same sort of thing. It was very conversational-based, it was artists being out and about, very visible. We were one of the first, I think, organisations in Lancashire where we were guinea pigs with this idea that an arts organization could be based in a library. We were given free space in the local library at Brierfield and we just created space for artists to kind of be in and around those communities. Being out, doing interesting things, talking to people, and our practice is built from there, really. And the notion of how we feel that makes it embedded, and responsive, and listened to. And over time, allowing that process to happen has then just created all these different avenues that we've gone down in particular areas like environment, or now, having our own space within part of a huge mill development. Was using a mill when it was empty, which is an important part of the community. So, in that responsive way, we've worked with a wide range of people from different backgrounds. Pendle is an interesting place to work. So, Pendle is kind of its local authority boundary, but actually, it's made up of small urban and rural towns. And in some respects, Pendle doesn't necessarily exist for people. They're either from Brierfield, Nelson, or Colne. And then you've got some very beautiful villages outside around our main feature, which is Pendle Hill. But in terms of Nelson and Brierfield, we have communities of mainly Pakistani heritage, which is like 41%. So, it's kinda been a really interesting journey working with communities from those two different backgrounds, I guess, indigenous-wise, as well as the Asian community, and finding ways of which the work that we do is relevant to those communities. And that's been a really fascinating journey of which we're still on that journey, but feel that we have some very strong connections and ways that we can engage with those different communities. - So, how has your work changed as a result of COVID and lockdown, and what do you think you'll do going into the autumn under these enhanced restrictions? 'Cause parts of Pendle are under more extreme measures, aren't they? - Yes. I mean, yeah, unfortunately we're one of those places that's at one point was the highest in the country, as well, so we ended up with the cameras being here, and stuff like that. I mean, I think the whole process of what we've all gone through in this thing for us as an organisation, and sometimes I can only talk about it personally really, because I'm still sort of living here now with the majority of our team sort of travel in a little bit. I mean, some live in East Lancashire . So, in some respects everybody was just like where they were. The biggest challenge that I felt was just as an organization, is how we can still be, and often we use the word useful in the work that we do, is how can you still be useful in that work in that current climate, and actually, struggling with the realization that actually, our practice wasn't necessarily the frontline stuff? And where do you and where you sort of place yourself within all that under those restrictions? And so for us, we did very quickly move things as much as we could to an online platform, where we found that we could really quickly create a space for people to still have a conversation and dialogue about what was going on. So, we use a tool called Talkeoke quite a lot, and it's something we've done in collaboration with People Speak. Yeah, Alex, you've experienced it. - Yes, I have, yeah. - And it's something that we've done in Pendle for a long, long time, but it's only over the last few years through the partnerships and just the sheer amount that we've done that people kind of now get it, and they see it as a place where you can have a very neutral discussion. And through working with People Speak, we sort of worked out a way that we could still do that online, do that through Zoom, and actually still create a space that was kind of a different way of using Zoom for people, and still have that openness. So, that immediately worked really well, and through our partners Building Bridges we have this joint thing called Talking Society. We just started to listen to what was coming through in terms of the conversations, whether that's to do with people struggling with home schooling, just generally, around physical and mental activity and health. We did a fascinating conversation which was something we already had programmed in with the local hospice around the death and dying week that there normally is, we decided that we still wanted to go ahead with that. And obviously, we framed it around that, and it was an incredible discussion about what people were going through. We had this hearse driver for the local mosque, and the things that he was doing to help people say goodbye to their loved ones by driving around to different houses so you could still do all that. But that space allowed that to be kind of brought out a little bit more that people were doing it, and through streaming it, through Facebook, all that sort of stuff. So, that was something that seemed to work very quickly online. Now we, in some of the challenges around digital, which we'll probably get onto, it wasn't a perfect scenario, but it did create a space where it felt like we could still be useful in the way that we could, because we had that key almost bread and butter element of how we work, which is the face-to-face. It's the conversation relationship taken away immediately. But that was one thing that we felt immediately happened. And then, you know, with young people who some were engaging online, but a lot just didn't want to do that, we very early on sent home packs of things that they could be creative with at home as a way to respond in not knowing exactly what their situation was at home for some of them, and some of them who knew a little bit more, as well. So, those were sort of some early things that we did very, very quickly. - I think that's really interesting. That sort of sense of, do we need to be frontline, and how can we be more frontline in our working? I think a lot of people felt like that. What can we do? What can we do? Was that the same for you, Tina? 'Cause you did do some very frontline stuff, as well, didn't you? - Well obviously, our programme, because we've got artists in residence, is that we are completely embedded in those two neighbourhoods that we work in. One of our artists is a costume designer, Gillian, who's over in Flakefleet. So, she started up a Scrub Hub. So, she raised just under 5,000 pounds. She made approximately 400 scrubs. She engaged 30 sewers, and this was for a sample of 216 people. And the reason that I want to talk about that statistically, is so you understand the size of it because I think what COVID did for people is people were really desperate for a purpose during it. They wanted to be helpful, they wanted to be useful, and actually, people still wanted to be sociable. And I think what the Scrub Hub became was just this light, little microcosm of society at the time where it was fantastic. It was like an operation where people were volunteering 'cause they wanted to be van drivers, and they wanted to drive the patterns around, or pick the material up. And then there were people who want to sew, but their sewing skills weren't good enough to write the scrub, so then they said, "Well, it's okay. "We'll make you scrub backs or we'll create labels." I guess the role that LeftCoast could play the straight bet is we could just help the communication of it and the logistics of it. So that actually, this wonderful, kind of almost like Dunkirk spirit could kind of thrive at that time. So, that felt really great, and then on the other estate, Mark, who's naturally a storyteller, switched his practice and was doing a lot of gardening projects, and giving seeds to people, and doing beautifully illustrated sort of instructions that had to be put carefully in plastic bags and sanitized to people about how to grow whilst they were in COVID. Because again, I think the need to kind of nurture, and just be to do something different in that time was really important for people. And what we're hoping is that we can kind of obviously, build on those relationships that we've created with people. 'Cause I would say whilst as an organizsation we're thinking, "What are we gonna do digitally? "Ah, ah, online, online!" Actually, the work itself translated into being about making, and creating, and nurturing, and it was super analog, in choosing the technology to hold the projects together. - I mean, it sounds like you both provided some really needed outlets for that purpose, and for people to feel purposeful. But also, just share and get involved. Was there any difference in the ages and the demographics of the people that connected to those activities? Will you find it was mainly older people, or how did the younger people engage with the stuff that you were doing originally? - I mean, we found, we struggled really, young people engaging on a digital platform. I mean, you know, they shouldn't have been doing, but they were already meeting their mates out and about still in places and around where we are. And so, the idea for them to then come on to line, to meet their mates, even though some of them wanted to come and see us, just didn't work as a spare. So, we had a small group for a regular period of time until we had to make some decisions about some furlough things, and that was very useful for them, and you know, just having that touchpoint for those particular young people was really important. But generally, it's been a challenge, and we've had that in Pendle 'cause we're part of this kind of youth forum of organizations who work with young people a lot. People have struggled with that generally around working with young people. - Have they tried stuff online? Did you try something and it just didn't gel? - Yeah. I mean, you know, Zoya, who did some work with us just recently, she just bumped into one of the people in Nelson the other day, and it was sort of like really apologetic. "Look, I'm sorry I didn't come to it, but I tried coming in. "It just felt weird talking to you online." Do you know what I mean? And so, you kind of sort of understand it. I mean, it's weird, isn't it? Because you think young people are the ones that are on that. - Yeah, this is their space kind of thing. - But I think they operate in that space in their own way. And as soon as you try and mingle that into-- - Yeah, soon as you try organized fun, they don't like it . - But it was, you know, it was useful for the ones that came, and like I said, we kept sending stuff back, as well, for people to do things. We had a nice little interaction where they created some work and some letters that they sent to a local care home, which was just a little ad hoc thing that we did, which was nice. I mean, generally, in terms of the other digital engagement, it was mainly adults, late 20s, upwards, you know? And it's actually opened up the door to people that have never really engaged with us before-- - How? - It was more to do with the subject matter that we were putting out there through this sort of program of conversations that just intrigued people in various different ways. - Did you find people just really wanted to talk? - Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And like I said, there's a way in which we run those sessions that has got those ingredients to still be neutral in the middle so you're not holding that conversation what people want to bring to it. It just felt really important for people to be able to have their say about things, you know? When we got into some quite meaty stuff, and some difficult, not difficult, but sort of challenging conversations, but generally, people were really up for that, you know? But then there were odd ones where it's touching on stuff that was just general things that are still moving forward in the area, where actually, the space helped to create something that was quite contentious, and still enabled that to happen in a way that again, that nobody was really holding that agenda. You know, we used visualization techniques as part of it, as well. So, as people were talking, Rick, who works with the team, is just fantastic in turning that into an image, and then we flash that back up, and then we re-share that out, as well. So, digital things that work could still work within that kind of very online format, as well. - What about you, Tina? Was that the same for you? Did you find that it was the young people weren't wanting to engage online and it was mainly offline? - It's a bit like what Paul said, honestly. And I'm not sure that we're needed to facilitate sort of online conversations, between young people. The things where we've engaged best with young people on our projects, again, on the estates, we did a fashion label. So, we did a street wear label called Front Door, and young people met above a pub and made a really small and beautiful collection of clothes based on the theme of debt, you know? So, certainly we've not tried to do necessarily, a lot of online digital projects with young people, 'cause I just don't think they kind of need us for that, in a way. Again, we tend to use that digital as a way to communicate with people and to bring people together, rather than to actually facilitate the work that we do. But saying that, saying that, I think COVID's gonna change that for us somewhat. And ironically, Sarah, who's usually out in the estates on a tricycle with tea urns on the back chatting to people because she couldn't do that, she disappeared into the world of AR and VR, and it became really handy 'cause we had a green space over in Flakefleet. And during COVID, the residents wanted an extra bench there 'cause they want to kind of talk to each other, but be socially distant. So, one of these benches had been broken and taken away. So, Sarah said, "Well, I'll make one." So, she created 40 signs in AR, and then took the AR down to the space and showed them what the benches would look like in the space, and then they picked one, and then she went away and made it and then brought it back and put it in the green space. So, I think it's about digital as a facilitation, as opposed to necessarily it was all suddenly just making stuff on a laptop, or on our phones, you know? - Yeah, definitely. I mean, it sounds like you both have done that really well. Whereas at the beginning it felt like a lot of people were just shoving the same stuff that they do all the time, just online. And it just, I dunno, it just didn't feel like it worked. - Well, you're tempted to do that 'cause it's the quickest and it's the easiest way for you to respond. But then, which was what we thought about doing, but then we thought, "Well, actually, "we can't kind of do this really, in an authentic way "'cause we're not a digitally-led organization." But again, I think what COVID certainly made us think is about, "Okay, but what actually could we be doing," or what is interesting about this that what's happened that can be sort of catalytic perhaps for some new work? - So, was there anything that you tried and it just didn't work? - We tried some debates online that didn't work very successfully, but when we switched to polls, that kind of worked better, you know? Getting people to kind of vote on things, rather than congregate. - People like voting. I don't understand, you know? We don't seem to do very well when we vote for things in this country, I don't think. Okay, so were there things that you found that became really important to your community that you haven't really noticed before because of COVID? Were there things like you had mentioned about the bench, Tina? All of a sudden, seating in public spaces becomes really important. Were there things like that for you, Paul, that you notice people were all of a sudden feeling like they needed more of? - I don't know. I mean, I think sometimes the feedback that we got from whatever we did out there, whether it's through those conversations, was just the fact it was helping people to connect around things that they were struggling with themselves, and knowing that someone else was having the same struggles. So, even like the home schooling conversation where we had again, it's that right range of people within the conversation as well. So, we've got like a couple of head teachers or a teacher, some parents, you know what I mean? All that together and just see just that recognition that actually, "We're all struggling with this a little bit," was something that was coming through. I mean, I think for us, where things started shifting a bit was obviously as things started to ease, and then over the last sort of month, or six weeks or so, where we've ended up in this situation in Pendle was we knew that there had to be a grassroots approach to trying to support how we could talk to people about what was going on because there's been a lot of confusion. There's still a lot of kind of anger over that situation. But also, there's a lot of stuff, I mean, I'm sure it's probably the same within your communities, Tina, but there's a lot of things around the conspiracy theory stuff. I don't know if it's particular to particular communities like the Asian community, whatever, but there is a history of how stuff is communicated and things are shared about various different things. And trying to kind of play a part within all that to try and turn it, well, to try and give it space to turn things into a positive, to try and get some messages out there that we have to try and address this was something that we knew the only way we could do that is by trying to get back to some face-to-face work. That's what we kind of ended up pushing ourselves into. Trying to find a way to do it safely, all that sort of stuff, and just be then back out and about on the streets, like we've normally done in the past as quickly as possible, really. - 'Cause you've done something recently where you printed T-shirts, didn't you? To help to remind people about washing their hands, and wearing the masks, and things like that. To I guess, to be more visible. - Well, yeah. I mean, it was partly because a lot of the stuff that was coming through the systems that were kicked into place through public health, the county, the local authority were all very, it's all the rules that they have. You've got to get that across, but it was all just being very blasted out there. And we just felt like if there was another way of just presenting those rules, and it just enables that conversation to happen, that kind of just that interaction, and then, yeah. Basically, like I said, I don't think it's massively creative in any way, but we've just literally been giving out free T-shirts and free masks, that have got these kind of four versions of the logos on it with the messages on. So, are we two meters apart? - Yeah, I saw 'em. They look really good. - Yeah. Yeah. Face mask, got it covered. Oh, respect the bubble, which has been a popular one. - Yeah. - We were sort of like, you know, "Is this gonna work? "Are people are gonna want to where T-shirts?" But it's weirdly become like this kind of statement, and you're now seeing people out and about wearing these T-shirts. - Oh, really? That's awesome. - As part of it, but that was just to support a grassroots approach to... The council's slogan was, "Let's do it for Pendle." It was like this collective effort to try and not get ourselves in a lockdown scenario. However, because then further measures were put in place, it resulted in a lot of backlash. Local organizations received some of that backlash because then we've been partly front-facing of all that encouraging people to get tested whether you've got symptoms or not, and all that sort of stuff. And even though that's all happened, the government still stepped in, and so that created another layer of confusion. So, that's some of the challenges and attentions about where you then play a part within all that. And that's been really interesting to navigate at this time, with the current situation. - Yeah. I mean, I can't actually imagine what you've been dealing with over there with all those different stresses and pressures on how you deliver and how people engage with you. Do you feel like as a result of everything that's happened that your participation levels and your engagement levels have changed in any way? - I mean, I think we just... We are reaching and talking to more and new people than we've done in the past because there's been a different reason to do it and a different way that we've been doing it, even under the restrictions, you know? That idea that you're just in a town center you're just having conversations with people, and people have been wanting to talk. I mean, you can really tell people are desperate to talk. - Normally, they're like, "No, I haven't got time. "Haven't got time." - Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's definitely still an element of that 'cause it's almost like the face masks allows that to happen even more. It's like they don't even have to look at you 'cause we've got . - Well, do you know what? It's really weird. When I've got my glasses on I think people can't see me. It's just weird. If you put something on your face it's like you automatically become invisible. Or is that just me? - Yeah, but I mean, actually, trying to just work out how you do it. So, whether it's wearing visors, whether it's all that sort of stuff, which feels like it could be awkward, or difficult to make that process work, actually, we've still been able to get past all that and you're still having the same kind of intimate conversations about what people are going through, talking about, even though you've got a mask on, or you've got a face visor on. Somehow, it still works, you know what I mean? And I think that's helped us have a bit of confidence to feel that we can actually still do this and not really freak out that, "Oh, this is gonna really change, "completely change the practice in-- - People still want that connection, don't they? - You're just slightly changing the way that you do it. - Yeah, exactly. But I have to say it's really interesting because I found, and I don't know if you've found this, too, but when you're on the Zoom, people are less guarded, and they do just talk, and talk, and talk. And I just wondered if you've increased your usage of different types of digital apps. I mean, you were talking about VR and AR before, but do you find that people on the flip side of the grassroots stuff, do you find that when people have engaged online that they have been sharing more about perhaps more intimate things? - I've been super encouraged by our partners, honestly. To answer the first bit of your question about new technologies, you know, we like a good mind map and a good post this. So, we were a bit knackered, quite frankly. The first couple of weeks were so analog. But actually, we've used MURAL as a tool, and it's been embraced by the people around us. Like our evaluators are using it with us. We've been working on a project painting the town that we have. We've been working on that with the collaborators on MURAL, and that's been really successful, too. So, that's all been really good, you know? There are some tools that we've adopted that I think we will continue to use, so that's brilliant. What was the second half of the question? - Through Zoom, or through whatever other conference call or sharing platforms you've used, do you feel like they've been able to share more with you? - I definitely do. I think it was really interesting, the Zoom etiquette, depending on how many people are on the call. 'Cause obviously, the intimacy of the conversation dilutes, the more people that are on it, till eventually you get to presentation and seminar mode. But what I've really welcomed with some partners that I ordinarily struggled to find time to speak to them, 'cause everyone's had more time to talk to you, which has been fantastic. So, I've actually been invited on Zoom calls almost like being invited into meetings, you know, that I feel it just wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for COVID. They'd just be going, "Oh, well, are you free "in the next hour, 'cause I'm going to chat to so and so," and there's no getting any buses, or getting in your car, or getting any trains, you know? All you need to know is somebody sending you a link and you can go in that meeting room with that person who's down the other end of the country. - It's like a digital knocking on, isn't it? "Are you in, are you out?" - Yeah, and so in that respect I think it's been great. And also, just one other thing we like, one of the things for us that we kind of had to really sort of ratchet up, and I'm sure Paul's the same, is lack of support of local artists and the support of local creatives. And I think ordinarily, again, it might be quite hard, a hard sell to get like a networking support set online for local creatives 'cause creatives are doers rather than talkers a lot of the time. But we found that to be quite successful to sort of network local creatives together and encourage them to be on a platform with one another, and then step back out of it. So, just to put the facilitation in again, and then those not being part of that conversation, but just kind of having got it on the go. So, you know, there's a lot to be said for this digital malarkey, isn't there, anyway? - Well, there is, but I mean, kind of just thinking back to what Paul was saying, as well, and those figures I mentioned at the beginning, you know? 300,000 people in Lancashire and South Cumbria not having internet access. And within that, there will be people who have disabilities and can't access some of this information in the same way. With that in mind, how important do you think it is for there to be some digital inclusivity so that people can engage, still engage in the arts? Do you think that we've just got to get past that and just carry on giving as much face-to-face as you can, or do you think that you're gonna think about building in more inclusivity in the digital tools that you're using? - I think definitely trying to find some kind of balance between the two is something that we're trying to explore. I mean, just echoing what Tina said, I think much more as an organization I think that digital tools have been much more useful for how we've been effective. I mean, to be honest, the way the team has worked over the time and how efficient we've been by using things like Zoom for ourselves has definitely stepped up the ability to do the work that we're doing. - So, you've been more productive? - Yeah, we've definitely been more productive. It's been more focused. This notion of what the work might look like in the future as a team is something we're starting to really understand. We started to look at our space here at the garage, and we've got that sort of ready for staff to come back, but there's actually a recognition that, that doesn't have to be the case. And interestingly, what it might do, because we've got like a shared space for staff. We have rooms for artists to stay in upstairs, and a project space at the back. It actually means that we might be able to use the space even more for activity than staff, because sometimes there was a tension because it's small. It's hard to have people around at once. And so, the idea that . "Well that's fine. "I could work . "I can do everything I need to do." Just challenges that. I mean, and again, personally, that traditional idea of what work is and going to work to do work somewhere has really pushed that forward, you know? - Yeah. - I'm excited about what that looks like, and I'm not as worried about this idea that we get back to something because we don't want to do that. We don't want to get back to a normal at all. It's obviously what people have been talking about. I mean, in terms of working with community, I mean, there's definitely a... Pendle is a place where some of that inequality is there, really. That's the reason why the libraries are still so busy is 'cause a lot of people are just in there using computers because they don't have them at home. So, for me, I think it'll be interesting to see what more we do engaging people locally digitally, versus the face-to-face 'cause I still feel old school in that sense. That really, that is the work. That is what you want to be doing. And I think it's just making sure, in some respects, I'm kind of quite envious that Tina's describing a residency model that we've had for a while within the community, but at this period in time it wasn't there at that time. So, we didn't have that ability, and I felt I've been through real challenges feeling guilt that we weren't doing enough, or some of the things that we are doing, we couldn't do. And I'm like, "Well, what's that about then, "with the practice," you know what I mean? And I would like to think that because I'm sure something like this is potentially gonna happen again. You know, these are the kind of things that we've got to expect in the future. I think that, you know, you want to make sure that there's an ability to be able to respond like that, and use the learning from this to do that. - Yeah, definitely. You know that Ludus has decided as a result of COVID not to go back into their building, and they're gonna be mobile. Yeah, and actually we're going to do a podcast with Kit to talk about sort of ripping up the rule book and making those really hard decisions and choosing a different way to go forward. - That's amazing. - Yeah, it might be worth a conversation with Kit about that, but I mean, you've just got your new space, haven't you? So you won't want to give it up. - Well, the thing is for us, it was never about having a space that becomes a space like that, that could become a way to a venue. It's much more been a space that could be really flexible in that sense, but seeing what organizations are going through who've got those big venues, and the struggles, and the continued struggles that they're having I think that there has to be a real ripping up with a rule book in terms of what that could look like. - I think as well, it sort of feeds into that notion of still being visible within the community. People, they like that regularity, don't they? And knowing where something is and it's always there. And if they know where you are, that contributes to that feeling of trust, and confidence, and that you're still there to give them that platform to have these conversations that perhaps they're not been able to have elsewhere. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So, we've talked about this before, but I think there's a lot of the work that you both do is about engendering this sense of a collective responsibility and a collective obligation to come together for the benefit of the common good. Can you talk a little bit about the kind of things that you feel have worked most successfully for you in terms of making that happen? Are there things that you think, "That really worked, we're gonna try and build on that"? - Hard, isn't it? 'Cause you can't have models in some ways, because it's like you do stuff with people, and from the stuff the things emerge that needs to emerge, the conversations that happen, and then the things that people want to talk about, or are really bothering them kind of come to the fore. And also, sometimes this works really playful. I think it's really important to sort of bear in mind that even in COVID, just look at the global response. People kind of took, I don't want to say took the piss out of it, but they really derided what was happening and embraced the situation, and almost kind of celebrated it with humor to really sort of counteract that real kind of how much fear there was around for us all at the beginning of the pandemic, 'cause we did not know what this was and it was frightening, you know? So, it's that thing of, I think, for us, it's just being catalytic. Just doing things with people. Finding activities, playing with people, giving them tools, facilitating stuff, and then seeing what comes out of that, that's important. But there are things that drive us. I would say to you my business partners has changed radically in terms of what we're going to do, but it hasn't changed radically in terms of what our mission is and what we set out to do as an organisation, you know? So, we will continue to make work with people that hopefully means that it brings people together and reduces their isolation. That we celebrate Blackpool and Wyre so that they are great places for people to live in, despite what the media might say about them. And that we give people the agency, particularly with the housing associations, to ask for the things that they want for it to improve the state of their lives, you know? And I don't want to come across as noble or pious in that, but those things will not change 'cause they're our mission and our business plan. The how and what will change because I think through COVID, like Paul says, we will absolutely advocate for the value of residencies. And that's about going back to funds and going, "This is not about big numbers. "This is really intimate, meaningful, deep work," and we feel that we want to do more of that because particularly, as Paul says, if the COVID conditions continue, I feel completely happy that I need to take festivals out of my business plan, I need to take events out of my business plan. So, it is about also recognizing where the value of the work is, and talking to the funders about just doing more work that actually stands that chance of having the greatest impact, and continually asking yourself, "So what?" It's not why we're doing this. We know why we're doing it, but so what? What difference does it make? And I think post-COVID that we were back in work this week in the office that, that's the thing that we did, you know? We got the flip chart payer out, but we did say, "So what?" How does this change what we do, and how can we get better at the things that have worked, and lose the things that don't work? So, it's been a loss and a gain experience, and let's talk about what we've lost personally and professionally, and what we've gained personally professionally from going through this experience. So, yeah, that's where we are. - It sounds like you're both sort of really looking at redesigning your process almost in correlation with the mood and the conversations as COVID continues. How has that changed the conversations and the way that you have responded? - I mean, I think the one thing that we do, do, is to try and make sure we create space for people to have that conversation wherever they're at with it. And it's not necessarily, I don't think it's us to correct or challenge, in some respects. It's about allowing that to happen so that people can find their own ways through that in whatever form that might look like. I mean, I think I agree. I mean, I really agree with what Tina's just saying there. The biggest thing for me, and I wanted to touch upon, 'cause we ended up actually doing a lot of support for artists, as well, locally, because as you know immediately, a lot of artists were just getting work councils and court. We intentionally didn't do that with our artists. We found a way to keep them contracted to kind of postpone, but also keep feeding money through, and got a lot of support for that. But there was a lot of artists that weren't having that experience. And we had a funding session already planned, which would have happened just after lockdown. So, we continued with that. And our accountant came and did a session with them just about working out what they need to do for self-employment. But for me, the thing that's going on at the moment, and this is probably another conversation, but it was just also recognizing what we've become as an organisation from where we started, which generally, same as Tina, we're not shifted from our vision, our mission. We're sticking to what that is, and that was partly how we wanted to also create a response to COVID. That we didn't get pulled into various different directions. That we're trying to stay true to that and just adapt. But actually, I think for me, this really showed some of the inequalities within our sector that I was wrestling with and struggling with in terms of how we're also developing as an organization, and we are very, I mean, I say lucky, but I know we did work hard to get an NPO status, but we've been . We haven't been financially affected by it, you know? And in some respects, we've benefited from it. And it was really difficult to wrestle with that, knowing that some organisations were struggling and some artists were just suddenly getting work canceled. And who's responsible for that? It's not just the arts council either, you know? That notion of the importance of having artists being out there to do the important works, I know we don't work traditionally in that sense. I mean, we've got traditional roles and we always wrestle with that, you know? We're a small team so we can be very flexible, but still, we have created a structure that needs to be supported so far before then you work with artists, and that for me, doesn't feel comfortable. Again, you know, we have to somehow get back to how we worked originally, so there's a real balance to that so that we are supporting those artists. One doesn't exist without the other, and I really think that the situation has highlighted that in a lot of ways of where that money is spent and who's getting it to a degree that I want to find comfort with again, that we have a good balance with that. That the sector is nurtured even more so at the moment. - Yeah, it's a big discussion. Maybe we'll do something separate about that because I do think that's a big discussion and it has been really quite upsetting to see colleagues just really, some people have just got on with it and other people have just really floundered you know, mentally, as well. It's been hard, and we can't forget that all our artists in Lancashire are part of our communities. Most of the people that are working with these communities also are part of these communities. So yeah, it's been really difficult. Would you say that's been one of the biggest learnings for you then, in terms of what's come out of COVID? - I mean, I think how digital tools have helped us be much more efficient as an organisation is massive. I think, as Tina's mentioned, we are also going into a process of reviewing the business plan. Like I say, although the meat of it won't change, I think how we approach things and remind ourselves why we started what we're doing, and what elements of those need to come back or stay again, is really important for us. And I think it is that supporting of the sector locally, that I think we've always contributed to that, whether that's through young people graduates or just artists coming through. I think how we can really genuinely do that in Pendle and across East Lancashire, I think, we've gotta crack that because that will help us in the future when something like this happens again. There will be an amazing infrastructure and approach that can help everybody get through those things and wrestle with the challenges that we continue to look at, whether it's through a pandemic or whether it's just the future of our high streets. I mean, we're moving into some new bits of work around town deal funding, having a presence in the town center again. All that sort of work. I think we need to really create strong practitioners to do that well. And as Tina said, and again, this has always been entangled to our work, it also highlights the importance of the small, quiet, intimate, slow-burning stuff. That is the bedrock of what we do, but I think we still struggle to really justify because they want the showy stuff still. They want the big, the stuff-- - Yeah. - And I hope that it just really emphasizes the importance of organisations and artists that do that work in places like this that still need much more resource and funding to do it as well as they can. - Yeah, 100%. I do think that Lancashire is really leading the way on that kind of stuff. And there's so much more that we could showcase and celebrate about the way that so many of our arts organizations work, embedded into the communities. So what about you, Tina? What were the things that you feel that have been sort of light bulb moments, or real shifts for you? - I also suffered from I've got funding guilt at the beginning of COVID. And I think that it's just a responsibility to kind of, you have the responsibility then to kind of share as much as you can of your resource, and your skills, and your expertise, and your teams with as many other people or organizations as you can. And so, you know, like Paul, I'm thinking about artists. Not just their support, but enabling them to make the sort of meaningful commissions in COVID. So, just as a for example, however you sit politically, there was all that stuff going on with clapping the NHS, but there were artists that were making work that were really anti that during COVID to kind of say, "There's some really interesting things happening here "in terms of our NHS that actually, you know, "we can just kind of whitewash all the fact "that there's been no investment in it for such a long time, "and we'll all stand outside and clap," you know? And so there was artists making work at the time that were not going with that narrative, which I think is really, really important. So, it is just about thinking, "Okay, we are in a position of privilege at this time. "What can we best do with the resource we've got?" And I'm not trying to get a halo. I'm just trying to say that helping people with arts applications and rescue funding a bit like Paul with the advice about furlough, it's just making sure that you try to do that as much as you can, you know? We're sat in ART B&B. That's our office at the minute now, an art hotel in Blackpool. It opened last December, and then COVID happened, you know? So, quite a lot of the work that we were actually doing also was just trying to save our building. It's not our business, it's not our property, but we feel it's an asset for Blackpool. So, obviously, just helping places stay open that we feel are culturally relevant to the work that we do and the place where we work. - What do you think then, going forward, and knowing what you know now, and having been through the last sort of six months, what's the main thing that you think's gonna change, if anything, about the way that you do your work, or the type of creativity that you practice, going forward? - We had a massive conversation yesterday in the office just about co-creation, you know? It is that thing of, we have been doing that. We do, do that, but we're gonna do more of it. We just need to sweat more of the small stuff, I think, is what we need to do. So, I think more intimate work is the way to go. - What about you, Paul? - Yeah, I mean, I think in essence, it's kind of getting back to some of the early stuff that got us going. And we've just sort of released a series of residencies and we've got some more to come on that, where we've made this decision to open up some space for artists to come and work here again, with very, very open responses to it, which is about just testing some things out again, and work together rather than for us to try and work it out, and then bring artists into something. We need to be doing this together and that's what is the success. And we're interested over the next six months to reinvest some money from developing associate model that we've got into just giving some artists some time and space. Also, we've developed a new partnership with a lady who's got a local farm, and she's just desperate for artists to engage with that. Just says, "Look, I can put up six artists, "and we're just gonna fund something." And again, it's just remembering that if you trust the process, put the ingredients in, what will come out of it will help us get through it. And it will invest in artists have that time to do it because it's quite hard for them to get paid to get that time. So, we're excited about what that might bring us as part of our business plan review, but just generally what that can do in the area. - That's really interesting. I mean, I definitely noticed a trend where for a long time, it just felt like it was arts organisations, or commissioners commissioning the artist normal sort of saying, "We want you to do this, "and it needs to look like this," which takes the creativity and the art out of it a little bit because you've got people who aren't artists or creatives making those creative decisions and creating those creative cues. But this it sounds like you're sort of going back to a much more collaborative and co-creative way of working, which I really think is gonna be beneficial in the long run. Not just to communities, but to the development of the arts sector in Lancashire. - It just need rethinking, and if things need rethinking, artists are in a really good position to kinda do that. There's a wisdom, isn't there? In just changing perspectives and reframing things. And artists are just terrific at doing that, and we try to bring the ones that we brought together online into the space, you know? Into the hotel, and we'd just kind of organize that because there was five local artists and five national artists, and then of course, we've got a second wave of this virus, and we can't do it. We wanted to bring those artists to contribute to our residencies and talk about where those residencies can go. So, rather than us doing that as a strategic sort of team, where there was a board, actually asking artists where they think that program needs to go. But it's just the bringing of people together is the thing actually that we constantly need to keep rethinking because we can't do it the way we've always done it. I think it is about how, for us anyway, how do we get to the participation bit of things a little bit quicker? 'Cause we've been all about the engagement, you know? 'Cause arts council is about people who don't engage with this. So, it's all about making sure that they know art is here, but actually, it's more about now, what does the art change, and what conversations can the art precipitate that we wouldn't ordinarily have? - Well, I think we've had a really interesting conversation. I've loved learning about what you've been doing, and how you're thinking you might go forward. So, thank you very much. Thanks for listening to "The Gathering." If you liked this episode, let us know in the reviews, and don't forget to share it with your friends. The show notes, links to all the organisations and initiatives mentioned in this episode, and much more, head over to www.artslancashire.org.uk/thegathering.