- [Alex] You're listening to The Gathering, a podcast for artists and creatives from Arts Lancashire. I'm Alex O'Toole, and this is episode two of series two. We're recording at a time when all of Lancashire is under local lockdown due to COVID-19, and murmurings of a possible second nationwide lockdown are starting to bubble up. The arts are no stranger to uncertainty, and professional artists are some of the most skilled at navigating the precarious nature of freelance work, and the stop/start characteristic of funded programs. Yet under the current conditions, the landscape in which we are now working has shifted almost beyond recognition. It's hard not to feel powerless, but if we are to survive as a sector, if we're to survive as a viable career path, we must find a way through. This series of conversations focuses on how we can start remaking the arts sector in Lancashire. We talk about working within the new restrictions, where the opportunities are, how to rip up the rule book, and why it's more important than ever to ensure that our artistic practice, our places and spaces, and opportunities to make and participate are consistently inclusive and representative. For this episode, I'm joined by a co-host, Helena Askov, a Lancashire Artist who is at the start of her career in the arts as a partially-sighted Actor and Theater Maker. Together, we talk to Theater Director, Daryl Beeton, from Daryl Beeton Productions, and Nickie Miles-Wildin, Director of Graeae Theatre, about their experiences and their opinions of accessing and working in the cultural sector as disabled people. As long time collaborators and as individual artists, Daryl and Nickie are committed to platforming the voices, the stories and experiences of disabled people, which are too often excluded from arts programs. Through their work, they provide opportunities for disabled artists of all disciplines to create, collaborate, and access professional opportunities in the arts. They also work tirelessly to highlight the need for arts organizations and venues to take a more inclusive approach to making, programming, sharing, and developing audiences for disabled led artistic work. For Arts Lancashire, our conversation with Daryl and Nickie marks the start of a renewed commitment to show up for deaf and disabled artists wherever we can in our work. In this episode, we discuss the impact of the pandemic on disabled artists, how to create opportunities through open conversations, and what arts organizations and venues need to do to improve access to culture for disabled audiences, and to create more opportunities for training and employment for disabled artists. - [Nickie] Hello, I'm Nickie Miles-Wildin. I'm a Theater Maker. I work with Daryl, who you're gonna meet in a moment. We work together and we create outdoor work, such as Bingo Lingo, Buck A Brenda, the Great Barnsley Bake Off. And I'm also Associate Director for Graeae Theater Company, where I'm the Head of the new Writing Department. - [Daryl] Hi, I'm Daryl Beeton. I'm a Theater Maker. I have my own company, which is creatively called Daryl Beeton Productions. And I tour indoor only work, and obviously I work with Nickie on Wild N Beets. And, you know, all of our work is around how can we make it sort of accessible, all inclusive and creative. - [Helena] I'm Helena, and I'm a Northwest-based disabled Poet, Actor, Theater Maker, and Teacher. - [Alex] So, Nickie, can you tell us a little bit about the work that you were doing prior to lockdown? - [Nickie] Yeah, so work I was doing prior to lockdown was a lot of, at Graeae, I just started a, creating a fully accessible rehearsed reading night called Crips With Chips, which actually there isn't anything else kind of like that that goes on. So everything was captioned, audio described, and it was the chance for disabled writers to try out new work. We'd literally just launched that in February with the next one due to be in April. Also, started to develop new work by new writers. Daryl and I were planning on getting the Great Barnsley Bake Off, potentially getting, having more time to develop that as a show and get that, try that out for outdoor audiences. I was also making a piece of work. Another role I had, which sadly finished last week due to end the contract, was a Young Company Program Leader up here in Manchester at the Royal Exchange Theatre. And I was due to be making a piece of work with the Young Company and the Elders, which obviously we couldn't. it was gonna be a massive like, music festival in the round, but sadly, we couldn't make that, so we has to put that online. So yeah, my work was quite varied through sort of new writing, through to devising work of community groups. And then with the potential of creating new work for the summer. And also, working on a project with Daryl, which we were due to do, we just nearly cast the project. - Oh no! - Yeah, and were due to go into rehearsals in like, end of March for a fantastic sort of sharing of work and where it was at. So, yeah, there were many projects which have had to be delayed. - [Alex] Yeah, so it sounds like you were doing so many different things in so many places, as well. Well, what about you Daryl? What were you doing before lockdown? - [Daryl] Same sort of story, really. So, I had sort of two major pieces of work on that were just about to kick off as lockdown kicked in. One was my A Different Way program, which was around how you make, and commission, and create disabled-led work for young audiences, and that's an area of work that I tour in. So yeah, we were developing three new shows, Nickie was directing one of them, and we were gonna put on some big symposium. And literally, it was about to happen sort of mid-April, and then, of course, lockdown kicked in, and we had to sort of pause it. But also, I had, I had a 12-week tour of Japan all booked in that took me like, a year to set up, that was gonna be over, sort of yeah, sort of linking up with the Olympics and things like that. So, so yeah, so literally... And my other role within some work I do is with an organization called Drake Music, who remove, who are sort of leaders in disability music and technology. And so, I do some work with them, but obviously, I took three months off them to sort of do this project to tour Japan. So yeah, literally overnight, there was a three month hole in my calendar. - [Alex] Oh my goodness. So you were going to, you were physically touring Japan? - [Daryl] Yeah, for 12 weeks. - Wow. - Wow. That must've taken some organization. - [Daryl] It did. Well, it was in two blocks. I was out there for eight weeks, and then I went back out, and then came back for July, and then went back out in August for another four weeks. Yeah, it did take a lot of, it did take a lot of organization. - [Alex] Oh! So, for both of you, has all that work been delayed, or is some just like completely stopped? Or will it be remade in a different way? - Well, you know, yeah. So we, a different way, we're sort of. 'Cause all of the R&Ds were virtually complete, so we're just looking at new models of how we can share that, two of them with a view to sort of, you know, touring again in the future. But I suppose the one that Nickie was working on, that I, a show called Special, which with teenage audiences, we're just gonna really sort of use this opportunity we're in to explore the creation of an online live show. Because regardless of what happens, as we all know, you know, people are gonna be in and out of lockdown for quite some time. And then, you know, disabled artists and performers who are freelance, you know, they might be shielding longer. So, how can we create a sort of, yeah, a show, a model, that is a little bit sort of freer in terms of how you present it? - [Alex] Yeah, that sounds, I mean, that sounds like you're making the best of a really difficult situation. What about you, Nickie, with the work at Royal Exchange? Did you say that had gone online? - [Nickie] Yeah, so the Elders, the Intergenerational Project, we'd never heard of Zoom until March the 16th, and then it's like everything became online and on Zoom. And it's, you know, it's great. And I continued to teach online. We did weekly sessions with the Young Company. And then, yeah, the Intergen Project, we, 'cause we had this idea, I was working with the Writer, Testament, he's a Spoken Word Artist. And we knew we wanted to do this thing around music and the music festival. So, looking at Zoom, we decided we turn it into sort of five episodes, sort of mini soap opera. And, because also, you have to take into those participants that you're working with. So, if we were in real life, we could have made it kind of quite autobiographical about their stories, because we're there, we're in the room, we can protect them with how much they're sharing. But when you put work online, you have to be careful 'cause you don't know if they're people who are on their own. So, we decided the safest way for everyone was to create characters, because then that way, it's a step removed, isn't it? And yeah, it just makes it a safer environment, I think. - [Alex] Yeah, that's a really good idea. - [Nickie] So, we created this sort of soap opera that everybody fed into. We built characters. Testament and myself worked on the storyline, what it could look like. And we were lucky that they Exchange gave us their Digital Media Content person, who I think he learned how to edit like literally in a week, more than what he'd ever edited before. We managed to get that out and on YouTube in May. And then, yeah, with the work with Graeae, it really felt like it was still important to get, even more so, to get disabled voices out there and still reach audiences. So, we, Jack Thorn is one of our patrons, and he kindly came on board with our project called Crips Without Constraints, and we selected 11 writers, disabled writers, to write a monologue about the situation. Nobody was allowed to mention COVID, which was great. And these writers wrote these fantastic monologues, and we had, we employed disabled artists to perform them. And myself and Jenny Sealy, Artistic Director at Graeae, we directed them. And it was all done over Zoom and self-taped by the performers. And that went out as a program. And we thought, "Well, let's, 'cause we're reaching "such a wider audience, and maybe new people "that we've never reached before, let's package it." So, we did the play that went out. Then we also had a picture of, taken from sort of Graeae archives. And then, we'd finish it off with one of our podcasts that were repeated. So it's, you know, a play, a picture, a podcast, it kind of became a bit of a package that we could put out and kind of remind people that disabled artists are here, and that we're artists creating great, high quality work. - [Helena] Do you think technology at this time has helped or hindered artists creating work? - [Nickie] I think it depends. Like, I feel like it's really, it's really weird, isn't it? 'Cause I'm falling out of love of it a little bit now, 'cause I can't wait to get back in a room with people. But I'd say it's allowed us to reach wider audiences. But then, not every digital platform is accessible for everyone. I know there's huge, with Zoom, the way it can be read, you know, for different people, it doesn't work. Whereas other, like Skype, Google Hangouts, we can get sponsored by them by mentioning them. Like, they feel like they're better digital platforms. And also, just because we're putting online, doesn't mean to say it's automatically accessible. We still have to, you know, audio description and captions. - [Daryl] No, I mean, I completely agree. I think the biggest problem with technology is the assumption that if it's online, it's more accessible. And therefore people think, "Oh, but it's online. "Anyone can see, it's really accessible." And, I think it's that sort of dramatic, sudden shift to online and the use of technology just means that, you know, for some, barriers are removed, but for others, there are even more barriers now than there would be before. So, there is, it's, you know, the thing, the barriers are still there, they're just manifesting in different shapes, and sizes, and ways like that. And some of the artists I spoke to were starting to feel a bit, and this is sort of a side note really, but a bit uncomfortable about, or felt pressured about the quality of what they're recording when they were sending off it. They were a performer or something. Because, you know, another artist might have some really great cameras, and I've only got my phone. And so, there was so many sort of multiple levels, but I think the biggest thing is what sort of Nickie said, that these, there isn't one platform that's accessible to everybody. And therefore, you know, how really can a community connect, and especially during lockdown, when there's constant barriers to communication? So, I think it's a little bit of a double-edged sword. Because I do think the benefit is, that actually, it's made organizations, artists, people who want to engage to push themselves into how they can reach more people. - [Nickie] I think, as well, my fear is like, thinking of theater, because that's my background, you see all these theaters putting stuff online. And I know like, a friend of mine who's visually impaired who said has actually been, she's actually enjoyed it, because she can Zoom in and see the actor's faces. Like, she's unable to do that when it's in a theater. She's not even had to have the audio description on. She's been able to just sit there and sit quite close to the screen, so she's loved it. Now, my fear is that as people start to go back to whatever this new normal is, and theaters to start to open, I mean, hopefully they all do, like, are we gonna be forgotten? Because there are still some of us that are not gonna be able to be part of that audience, because we're still shielding. So, I think there is that that point of going, it can't just stop. Like, whatever way it's being used in, there has to still be some inclusion, whatever that might be. I mean, yeah. And I'm falling out of love of it, because I'm a Theater Maker. If I wanted to do film and TV, I would've done that. And it makes me apprehensive as a Director. I think, like Daryl was saying, that anxiety over, I don't know how to do camera shots. Like, I'm still learning. And it's like, how can you make it interesting so it isn't just that sort of talking heads, Zoom thing again? - [Daryl] I think, sorry, I think there's also a flip side to that, as well. 'Cause I think some of the other concerns is that when the world, when, you know, more live performance starts to happen again in a more sustainable sort of normal "normal"... I don't know why I'm doing air captions, 'cause it's a podcast. But I'm doing air captions when I say "normal", is that actually, you know, organizations or venues might use that as an excuse and say, "No, it's not accessible live, but we've got it online, "so you can just sort of watch it there, "and that's our access option." And so, I think moving forward, we're just gonna have to, it's gonna be a hybrid. It should be a hybrid. And that actually creative content is made for the platform that it's meant to be on, rather than just filming a show from the back of the hall and then putting it on YouTube. - [Alex] We've talked about what you just said, Daryl, quite a bit. You know, people just putting the same stuff that they would normally do just online is no real difference. And I think, you know, what, when we do go back into theaters, when we do go back into our places where people can physically come and see live art, how are we gonna integrate some of these benefits that do come from things like being able to do Zoom into a live experience? What do you think? I mean, you were just saying, Nickie, before that you had started Crips With Chips, and you were doing the captioning. Was that live? - [Nickie] Yeah, so Crips With Chips was a live, it was rehearsed reading. So, we'd literally, the actors would have the script the day before, and then, they'd perform it to an audience. And it was the chance for some of those disabled writers to have their work heard for the first time. And it was literally just 15-minute extracts. But they, you know, they were all captioned. And it was, and we did a deal with the greasy spoon 'round the corner from Graeaes. Everybody got a portion of chips when they arrived and a glass of fizz. But it started to feel like we were really building up something that the community doesn't necessarily have. And I think it was that first one in February was just like, it just felt like, we'd, we were really starting something bigger. - [Alex] But were you live captioning whilst they were speaking? - [Nickie] It was all, yeah, yeah, it was all... So, the way it works, it's all sort of like, the captioner has the script, and it is copy and paste. And then, if there's anything live, then it is live captioned. Or I don't know if we had a signer? We had a signer when it was live, and then it was, all the plays were live captioned. - [Alex] So, these are the things that really should be standard, shouldn't they? - [Nickie] Yeah. - [Daryl] Yeah, I mean, captions, for example, you know, should be a legal requirement, because it's not just for people who are deaf or are hard of hearing, it reaches a much wider sort of range of people, people who's English is a second language, some people find it easier to read, neurodiverse, you know, learning disabled, you know? It's actually a much more wider sort of access tool than it's actually given credit for. And, actually, and I think me and Nickie were talking about this only earlier, was around actually, how can we now start to use that captioning in a more sort of creative, playful way? The same sort of way that we would use audio description or BSL in a live performance, how can you sort of include it and make it a little bit more sort of creative and playful? - [Alex] Yes, actually, I did see there's a production on at Graeae. I think it's, at the moment, they've got some creative captioning where it's part of the set. - Mm-hm. - Yeah. - [Alex] And I was watching the sort of, the trailer about it. That looked pretty cool. - [Nickie] That was probably Reasons To Be Cheerful, I think, that we had online. Or there- - No, Sugar Water. - [Nickie] Sugar Water, yeah. That might've been Solid Life of Sugar Water? - [Alex] I don't think it's either of those two, but maybe I'm wrong . - Oh, okay, it could be Plastered. - [Nickie] Plastered, yeah, could be that. - [Daryl] Let's go through them . - [Alex] Oh no, it's online at the moment on the site. - Right. - I don't look at our website that often. - [Alex] I'm sorry, I should've remembered what the title was, but it was, it's about what it's like to be human basically. And the set incorporated captioning within, it was just part of the set. - Yeah. - Yeah. That, I think, you know, and that's kind of what Graeae have done and can, you know, lead the way with. And you know, other companies are starting to take that on board, which is absolutely brilliant. And I think it's just about, like Daryl said, seeing that creative potential for something. And I think that's where I get frustrated at the moment, because we were starting to explore so much in real life, IRL, as the kids say, that now it's like, as we're working online, I feel like I'm having to relearn. Like, I have to learn what's now available and what can we do creatively with it? And I don't have those skills, and are there people out there that do have those skills, and where are they? So, it feels like I'm having to, in a way, reinvent the wheel on a different platform. - [Helena] Mm, so, what do you think cultural organizations could do better to ensure that the way that they operate reflects the diversity of lived experience? - [Daryl] You know, it sort of sits within that realm of, sort of, well, first of all, listening. Oh my God, just listen to what's going on. There's quite a thriving sort of experimental, playful sort of disability arts scene. So, first of all, just listen. But actually, that type of work can only really grow from co-creation, collaboration. It can't be non-disabled theater makers or producers making work for disabled audiences. It has to be a collaboration with disabled artists, because then, that's the only way that, yeah, that things will sort of grow, and ideas will spark, and it will ripple further within the organization, rather than just what they're presenting. - [Helena] Mm, do you think it should be, do you think it's consistent when, you know, when people produce? You know, I know sometimes as a disabled artist, there'll be a commission for a disabled artist, and then perhaps the organization doesn't have one again for a couple of months. Do you think they should make it consistent? Or what do you think about that? - [Daryl] Well, exactly. I mean, I think that, I think that there is an inconsistency, and I think that is a ... Yeah, so I think it is inconsistent, and I think there's sort of, you know, there's this whole sort of tick boxing, there's this whole sort of funding requirement thing that plays into it. And it's not until those opportunities are available within their main program, and it's not some sort of... People, we had a big discussion around what is tokenism, and people are like going, "But I'm really trying to sort of reach out "and I'm setting up this thing "for this particular sort of community "to sort of take part in." And you're like, "But that's not, that's still, "that's still an add-on ." - Yeah. - Just actually change your main program, open up your main program. That's not tokenism, that's sort of diversifying and inclusive, and all of that type stuff. Just having a sort of specific side scheme, which will only ever be for a short period of time, 'cause it'll be for as long as that funding pot allows it to last. - Yeah. - [Daryl] Where if it gets incorporated into your main sort of strands of work, then it's gonna be central. - [Alex] Absolutely. I mean, it's bizarre that so many cultural organizations literally ignore a whole part of their audience, and actually a whole part of what could be artists and producers that they could work with on a regular basis. So, that as you said, they'll do a program for a little bit, then they might not do anything else for another couple of years. - [Nickie] But I think that's it, isn't it? It's like, what is the work you're doing with that artist? Okay, you're putting on their show. Wow, well done, you. But if then, you don't go with them, what's the legacy what's the longevity in it for that artist? What is it you can offer that artist so they can continue to develop? It's not just about pick them up, use them for one project, tick a box, get funding, move on. It has to be true investment in that person as an artist. And if you can't house their work, then put them in contact with someone who can house their work. Up skill. We have, there are barriers to us as a disabled artist with regards to training, with regards to even getting into venues or organizations to see work. Therefore, help us. You know, not help us, that sounds too victimized. But you know, provide us with those skills that allow us to feed into your organization, as well. It isn't just, "Yeah, pick you up, use you, jog on." It has to be that sort of that real investment, as you would invest in any other artist, hopefully. - [Alex] It's completely embedded, isn't it? Because it- - Yeah! - [Alex] It's about having the facilities to be able to physically allow people to get into the building. And then, when they get there, be able to access the opportunities, whether that's as an artist or an audience member. - [Nickie] And also, let's not allow people to say, "I can't program you 'cause you can't get in my building." And you hear them say, "Well, I can program you to make work "in this car park over here, "or in that gallery in the town center," you know? Be that, think outside the box how you can engage with these people, 'cause you will start engaging with new artists, you'll engage with new audiences, as well. And let's not forget that everybody is pre-disabled. Everyone will become disabled, whether through old age, or an accident, or whatever. Therefore, nobody should, you know, be just put in that box because it has to made accessible to everyone, 'cause everyone is gonna need it at some point in their life. - That's so true, Nickie. I don't think I've really thought about that before, but yeah, that is absolutely true. And I wonder, I wonder how many organizations, and specifically organizations with buildings, think about these things, the space isn't just the space with a stage. It's so many other places, isn't it? So, I want, sorry, go. - Yeah, that easy to, you know, to be controversial, how many times they think about it? Probably once every four years when they have to do their NPO bid. - [Alex] I think you might be right there, I really do. - [Nickie] And I think that is not good enough. And I think, I keep hearing this word, the arts have got time to reset and restart. And you know, I'm no idiot. I know that when we come out of it, it's not suddenly gloriously gonna be accessible. But I think we have to start holding people to account a lot more. They have had time to write new bids that there purely is no excuse. And with disabled work, they can, they have to. - [Alex] They do have to, and you know, obviously this, that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you because you know, we certainly recognize that we need to make some of those changes in Lancashire. So, in terms of people who are doing it right, obviously, you guys have talked about your work that you're doing with different organizations and your own organizations. Are there, who else can you call out that's doing what you would consider a good job to make it, you know, completely accessible? - [Daryl] Well, I think in terms of commissioning disabled artists, and this is very specifically within the outdoor arts, but Without Walls. I mean, they've been going, they've been running sort of commissionings for many, many years, tens of years. And , you know, they've been really sort of championing, or leading the front, I suppose. So, they've made their mistakes and they've learned, but I would say their commissioning process, and once you've been commissioned, the support that they give you, you know, access and inclusion is at the heart and embedded within it. So, actually, as a disabled artist, your experience through it is quite smooth, as it should be. You know, so I would say it's sort of, their, I'd call them out as a good case. - [Nickie] Yeah, and then, I think, you know, sort of we've got Unlimited, haven't we? With their commissions trends that go out every couple of years. Then, also DaDaFest. - Yeah. - [Nickie] They're, you know, they're the kind of big ones. We, you know, I think GDIF, as well, Greenwich+Docklands based program, good work by deaf and disabled artists, and make as much as their work as they possibly can as accessible. Buildings-wise, I'd say Home in Lancaster. - Yep. - [Nickie] Definitely starting to push the way, and just generally, how they treat artists anyway. Like, you know, paying artists to actually fill out an application is brilliant. - [Alex] Yes, I saw that. - [Nickie] Mm-hm. And also, like the access in that building, you know, it's not there, but they're learning, they're striving to make it more so. I think Contact, as well, up here in Manchester, with young people started to integrate access and everything in the work that their Young Company do. Bigger-wise, I might have to have a think. - [Helena] What-wise, sorry? - Like, building-wise- - Oh, building-wise. - [Nickie] is like, I can't, I can't say. I just like, I know we have the, there's the Ramps on the Moons partnerships, but how, how much more does that go than one production a year? I've yet to see what that is. But you know, they've got Agents For Change in those buildings that are helping to, again, to bring those disabled artists in. So, it is happening. - [Daryl] On another note, apart from non-disabled-led organizations, I can't think of any that have disabled senior level staff or creatives. - [Nickie] And that's another thing, isn't it? Sorry, Helena. - That's alright. - [Nickie] But the disabled leaders... - Yeah, exactly. - They're all in disabled-led arts, but they're not in non-disabled-led spaces. - [Nickie] We've got Amit Sharma now, who is Deputy Artistic Director at Birmingham REP, which is brilliant. - [Daryl] That is massive, yeah. - [Nickie] But apart from that... - [Helena] I guess I had a question, especially from my point of view, as like a performer, as well, going for organizations. 'Cause my disability's kind of hidden, but it's not. You know, I've got an impairment. My eyes wobble if you look at me long enough, you'll see it. But otherwise, I don't. And a question that I always have for people is how do you approach companies when you are a disabled person, and they don't particularly have a high disabled cast? Or is there certain things you should and shouldn't say? Or should you just come out and say, "I'm a disabled person, and I want to audition for you "or work within your company,"? - [Daryl] Yeah. Ultimately, you know, disability is not a shame word. It's nothing to, you know... If they were uncomfortable with it, that's not our responsibility, okay? - Yeah. - Is the first thing. But actually, less people are sort of forced in a way, and it's something that is very difficult being at the front. It's not nice, you know? You get, you know, you take the first sort of rounds of punches before the others come behind. But , but actually, how are those organizations are going to sort of develop and think about how they talk about it even to begin with? And then, actually, you know, me and Nickie often have these conversations. I think Nickie was saying earlier today that, you know, if somebody asks for, even for an audition, and you ask, you know, "What's your access requirements?" And they say, "We haven't gotten there." Then, then A, it needs to be highlighted then. And also, that's sort of a reoccurring theme, and it's sort of like, until there is more and more people asking and demanding, if you like, there's not really... Organizations, casting directors, there are some really good ones out there, but the majority probably won't make a change unless they're continually pushed to do so. - [Nickie] I think that's why it's like, I always know if an organization is a good organization, because they'll say, "Here's our access requirement form. "Fill it out and let us know what you need." Before they've even asked you, you know, it's part of their sort of like criteria, their interview, their audition. They send it out to everyone, rather than it feeling like it has to come from you all the time. And I have to agree with Daryl, being disabled, it's not, we shouldn't be shamed. If anything, we're proud of the disabled word. And you know, and that's, it's also that question, isn't it? Around, we're so invisible in this world. And is that because we're hidden away, or is it people choose not to see us? - [Alex] You shouldn't have to ask. You shouldn't have to ask. I think that's the point, isn't it? It should just be a given. - It should be, yeah . - It should be, but it's not. So, you realize- - Yeah, yeah. - [Daryl] People constantly ask. - [Nickie] Yeah, I always say like, people go, "Oh, if you, you know, it's that thing "about knocking on the door, isn't it, to be let in?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I can't knock. "I can't actually reach the knocker on your door to get in, "so should we have a conversation about that?" - [Alex] Yeah. - [Nickie] It's about engaging conversation. You know, I used to think being militant was the way, but I've gone off that. I think you can be militant through a conversation, because that's how people start to learn. You have to, you have to do that thing and tell them like, you have to tell them about your world. - Yeah, absolutely. - Otherwise, yeah. - [Alex] Because, I mean, obviously you two are really experienced now. But for somebody who's coming in as a disabled artist, or a deaf artist, and they're new to this world, but they really wanna make a go of it, perhaps they feel a bit less confident about, of making the ask. - Mm-hm. - I think that's, sorry, I think that's an issue like, A, with the world, because it's how disability is seen. It's seen as being, "Oh, this victim, the shame thing." But also, it's a bigger question for the industry. Why do disabled people feel like they have to hide who they are, and that they don't have the right to be there? And a lot of that comes from this whole thing as a disabled person of feeling like we're never of good quality, we're never truly valued. And we are told that from a young age by society, by school, by teachers, by medical professionals, by media that we grew up with that we're not good enough. So, we carry that sort of inherent pain and trauma with us. So, for me, it's like, it's a bigger, it should be the industry has to start making that change and make us feel that welcomed and valid. Because we have, we're carrying that on our shoulders anyway. - Yeah. - I totally agree, as well. Because you know, with the industry, you think, when you think especially of the performing arts industry, you're thinking about somewhere where you go to get judged, don't you? If you're good enough for the job, if you're suited for the character. And quite often, for example, when they have character bios, you should be this type of character, they won't say if it's suited for a disabled person or not suited for a disabled person. So yeah, I totally agree. - [Daryl] Therein lies a bit of the problem, because why should the roles just be specifically targeted for a disabled performers? - Yeah. - [Daryl] You know, I think it's Jenny Sealy at Graeaes, she says, you know, "Shakespeare never wrote Juliette a non-disabled woman." So, you know, so I think, yeah, there's so many different factors in to make the, make the sector sort of more oppressive for disabled artists in terms of identity. But I would suggest to new people, or that are, you know, coming into it and stuff, is find your tribe. You know, there's, you're not the first. There's loads of people that have done it. And actually, there's actually quite a wealth of sort of sharing of knowledge and support out there, some of it, contradictory. People don't agree, but actually it's a good place to try and form, what's the word? - Network? - Form of baseline of what is acceptable and what things are achievable so you're not having to sort of take that path alone when there's actually one that's quite well-trodden. - [Nickie] Yeah, and you know, as I always say, like I'm sitting on the shoulders of giants. There are many people that have been before me that are continuing with this. So, I think, yeah, Daryl was right, seek people out, have conversations, build up your community. - [Alex] Definitely, definitely. I think that goes for anyone working in the arts, you know? It's hard enough, so you've gotta find those networks, you've got to find those people that could help you. And you'll know who those people are. You'll know who those generous people are with the generous spirit. So, yeah, it's about, it's definitely about doing that. So, just on that then, how, what do you hope or think will come out of this period in terms of what disabled and deaf artists will start making as a result of this period? - [Daryl] I think, I think just like, the sort of wider art sector an artist's response to it. I think it's gonna be very sort of individual and sort of personal, I suppose. But I do think it's interesting. I think, I believe that there's a real desire for people to get back out there and making. But it's interesting, you know, there's some outdoor festivals that are starting to take place. You know, we had GDIF, Greenwich+Docklands on the weekend, there's a couple of sort of more localized outdoorsy arts festivals. And some of those, you looked across their programs in the last couple of years, and, you know, disabled artists were being, were performing at those festivals not as like, "This is our inclusive strand." They were just, you know, part of the mix. You look at that program now and they're not there. And I think that's because we're still not sure about, you know, the safety, if you like? Or, you know, at the start of the pandemic, you know, a lot of the disabled artists know, beyond, they weren't necessarily worrying for as much as other people about how they're gonna make work now. They were worrying about how they're gonna survive in a way. So in a way, for me personally, I feel that, you know, it's been that six months, and it's only now that I'm starting to think about, "Hoorah, I'm back in the head space "where I can start thinking about work "and what that might look like." So, in a way, it feels like a little bit behind. And sometimes, that feels unfair when you see non-disabled artists back in the rehearsal room. You're like, "I'm not there yet "because I've been on a very sort of different journey." So... - Yeah. - [Daryl] Yeah, I do think there'll be, again, I do think there'll be, we've become much more understanding of the pros and cons of live versus online. And I think, in an ideal world, I think myself, I'll get to a holistic part where both will be relevant in my practice moving forward. - [Nickie] Yeah, I agree. I think we will reach that point. I think I will. I'll probably find the love in the digital work again. But yeah, I think, like talking to some of the, talking to some of the writers that work over at Graeae, some of them just wanna write like, really strongly the disabled narrative, but maybe not like, about experience in lockdown . I think focusing on what that is and what life is, and yeah. But it's a struggle, isn't it? Because everybody's got so much going on at the moment. And I don't mean it to sound like we don't all. But like, you know, talking to a writer where she's had to sort out her own PPE for her personal assistance? So, not only are you trying to sort out when you're gonna get your food box delivery, but you're also having to work out how you're gonna get gloves and masks and aprons for your carers to come in and give you that, you know, so you can live independently in your own flat? There's always that thing, isn't there, that actually, it's quite funny, isn't it? People go, "Oh, you're not experienced "in doing budgets, or whatever?" "Well no, I do, I pay my personal assistants every day. "I work out where I'm getting X, Y, and Z equipment from. "So actually, I have that skill, but in a different way." Like, you know, we aren't all just sat at home. People do have stuff going on that we have to take into account. - [Alex] Helena and I, we were talking about that, Daryl, weren't we, in a previous conversation about this? The fact that, you know, lockdown has re-medicalized a lot of disabled people, which in fact, massively affects your mindset. - [Nickie] Well, and I think like Daryl said, when you see people going back into a rehearsal room, like it builds that hierarchy back in, and survival of the fittest. And when am I gonna? I feel like I am the sick. It goes back to school days being the disabled kid sat out on the side during PE or playtime whilst everybody else is playing British Bulldog or whatever it is, 'cause they haven't bothered to include you. It's that sort of like, that feeling. - Yeah. - And I don't wanna be sat on the wall for much longer, when, you know, and what are we gonna do about it? And, you know, it's health, isn't it? It's I still wanna live, so therefore, I have to find a way I can sit on the wall with my other mates and still make, and we can have our own fun. - [Alex] Yeah, I think mindset, as well. It's such a big thing, and it affects creativity in terms of whether you're even in the mood to do something creative. But then, also, what you were saying about your writer friends, as well, Nickie. You know, how do you write for what comes next, if you don't know where you're gonna make the work or who the audience is gonna be, how many people are allowed to watch it? It's a really odd, odd situation all around. - [Nickie] Yeah, and also, if you gonna be there to, with the work being made. - Yeah. - And you know, I'd always think about how, if the artists were shielding, how I can still have them in the room and have them collaborative. And you know, I'm still that artist. I don't know when I'm gonna be able to get in a studio and make work. And I think, you know, a lot of us are taking it a week at a time or month at a time. And let's be honest, the guidelines are changing every day. Like, we've been on air, and it's broken now that the R rate has gone over one. - Oh really? - So, who knows where we are gonna be next week? - Yeah. - It's, yeah, yeah. It's, I don't know what work is gonna be made. I think, I think some of it might be quite angry. People will come back. But I also think, I think it will take us a bit longer to get back to it. - [Daryl] Yeah, and I think what will get lost in that is our voices then, because it will be sort of, you know, the voices that, yeah, the voices that we'll hear, the voices that the right shows that will get put on won't be ours, I suppose. - Yeah. - Is the worry. - [Alex] Now, is that one of your biggest concerns then going forward, that you've kind of lost a bit of ground, or a lot of ground? - [Nickie] I worry that we'll, like, we were starting to get to quite a good, though it doesn't sound like it, does it, from this conversation? We were starting to get to a good place, you know? Like having conversations with those bigger organizations around, you know, we're starting to hold them to account. "What are you doing, Rufus Norris at the National Theater, "for representation two out?" You know, we were starting to really have those conversations. And now, it feels like these places are too busy, you know, thinking about have they actually, have they all got jobs? Have they got a building to make work in? So, it feels like those conversations that were happening are now gonna be put back another 18 months to two years. - Yeah. - And as artists, are we gonna be, is disability arts gonna go, what's gonna happen? - [Daryl] And I think, in a way, it's not so much the work, because I think the work itself will always be made and survive, or survive might not be the right word. But I think what we got to is, there was, it felt like there was a sort of cultural shift in people's minds, and I feel that's what Nickie's talking about the conversations. - Yeah. - That actually it was about, "Oh, I get it!" So, you know, it felt like there was a cultural shift, and that's because there were more disabled artists having opportunities to make work. There were more disabled people getting out there and seeing shows. The increased visibility was really strong, and that sort of held those bigger organizations to account. Moving forward, if disabled people aren't in the audiences, if disabled people aren't going to the galleries 'cause they're not feeling safe, if they're not in a position to make work at the moment, if the opportunities for making work are, you know, the recruitment thing isn't sort of accessible or safe, you know, and so it feels like actually that sort of conversation around cultural shift is the thing that's, there's the more fear about crumbling, 'cause that's the hardest bit to rebuild. - [Nickie] Yeah. - [Alex] So, I completely understand where you're coming from with all of this. And I think, you know, I feel angry that anybody is in this position. So, what do you think are the opportunities? What can the arts sector do to make sure that conversation doesn't fall down the cracks and that, you know, when people feel safe enough to come out of their homes and start making work again, in, you know, not that it may have stopped, but start making work with other people in the same space, how can the arts sector facilitate that so it happens quicker, and there's less of a break? - [Nickie] I think it's about not stopping the conversations. And also, I think like everybody's got to do these guidelines, haven't they, about going back to work. Include people that are shielding in that, how you can still work with those people if they can't be in the space. I think that's important. - [Daryl] I think it's the, you know, it gets said quite a lot, but it gets said a lot 'cause it's true. The old system, the old rules didn't work anyway, and they weren't very good actually. So, don't try and rebuild them. Actually, you're at a point now where you are looking at reopening, you are looking at sorts of future plans, things like that. Engage with conversations, bring disabled people, artists, administrators, you're mate whose disabled, bring them into the conversation so you can get as many sorts of real life views on what that decision will mean to them. - [Nickie] Yeah, I think, as well, go as far as like, who's on your board? - Yes. - Like, reshape your board. Have some disabled people on that. - [Daryl] There's the We Shall Not Be Removed campaign, which is a Disability Arts Alliance. You know, they're, at the moment, having some campaigns and this information out there, and it's sort of like, and this is what I mean by listening, you know? I think just take some space to listen to the conversations that are already happening in this area, in this field, and trust that their experiences and opinions are valid. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean they're wrong. You don't really understand 'cause you're not living it. So you just need to listen and accept what they're saying as truth, rather than be defensive or try to judge it or unpack it. - [Nickie] Yeah, yeah, completely. You don't know about it 'cause it's not your lived experience. That doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen. - [Alex] Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think, I think, certainly in Lancashire, I sort of feel, and this is just my opinion, that there's not enough, those conversations aren't happening because there's not enough people who know who to have them with. And it's sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, because we, you know, we don't know who the people who are disabled or deaf who want to work in the arts are, we don't know enough of them. And so, they're not being, you know, locally, I'm talking about, so they're not being included in the conversations, and therefore, they're not even being thought about as part of this conversation. I may be doing a disservice to some of the organizations I'm sure some of them are doing, but not on a consistent basis as we've been talking about. - [Nickie] But also, like, I would go then, but there might be deaf and disabled people that don't know they can be artists. - Exactly. - And they're not being engaged with. So, everyone is an artist, and it's up to arts organizations to put that out there and make everybody feel welcome. And now's the time to do that. - [Helena] Yeah, it's like about stop it being a barrier, isn't it? Like I was saying about when you audition or when you meet other people. I mean, it's taken me, you know, quite, some people are born disabled and it takes a while for you to be confident within yourself. And if you're not confident in yourself, sometimes you don't think I can be an artist because of that. You know, that is something that, yeah. - [Daryl] I would, you know, yeah. Who are the regional key players that should, they should be leading on this? So, for example, who in the region gets the most Arts Council NPO money , you know? Go to those type of... You know, look up Arts Council diversity data, as well, see what they're doing in terms of their sort of diversity agenda, and in terms of their representation within their company. And people are like, "Oh, but now's not the time." Now is exactly the time to have these conversations and go, "Actually, moving forward, "no one in the region is really holding this. "You're a big NPO, for example. "Let's have a conversation about how we can work together "to hold something so something can start." Because it, 'cause the other problem is what it ends up doing is becoming the sole responsibility of a freelance artist whose really passionate about it. Myself and Nickie have been these people ourselves where we'll hold a group, we're not being paid for it, but we're just gonna try and drive this agenda. And that's just really unfair, actually. It's, okay, it should be led by those people, but those people need to have a place to live, and that should be within some key regional organizations that are receiving, you know, public funding. - [Alex] Mm, 100%. So, well, that leads me on to, you know, where can people find more information and get support to help them with their thinking and their working practice about making their spaces, their places, their practices more accessible so that we can enable more disabled and deaf artists to enter and make work within the arts? - [Nickie] I'd say look at the organizations that are already doing it, seek it out. There's many a panel discussion going on at the moment. You'll find one every week probably . Look at the We Shall Not Be Removed. There's a bunch of great organizations and artists on there. And, you know, follow people like, you know, Graeae, Deafinitely Theatre, Unlimited, DaDaFest, Divercity, Mind The Gap, Time Thinks. You know, that's just to name a few. Have conversations with them if they're in your area or in your region. Find ways that you can pay disabled artists to come together and have a discussion and a conversation to feed into your venue. And you know, that is that I'm a great believer in the "Field Of Dreams", "If you build it, they will come." You have to build it. And I think, yeah, it's true investment in those people. So, seek them out and have those conversations with them, and pay them for their opinion. - Yeah, I mean, I agree. You know, one of the big things I say, and again, I feel like a broken record about listening. I always say sort of like organization people ask me that question, I'm like, "Well, how many disabled artists do you follow on Twitter? "How many disabled organizations do you follow on this?" And, you know, and actually, if you're not following them, you won't know what the people are talking about. And following them on Twitter and things like that is such an easy sort of easy first step. - [Alex] Yeah, I'm always amazed about how many organizations, they might have followers, but they don't follow their followers. And surely, that's the easiest thing to do to generate an audience, an engaged audience. - [Daryl] And have a conversation. And you know, and then the sort of, there are many sort of, you know, tool kits, and fact sheets, and little bits of information and the problem is lots of different organizations do them and they do them very well. And, but the problem is that really sporadic. So, this is my shameless plug as part of a different way, online, we're pulling together all of those sort of resources, trying to pull as many as we can into one place. So, yeah, so there's gonna be- - We'll link to that, Daryl, we'll link to that- - A space online for that. Yeah, there should be a space on my website soon that'll sort of break it down into sort of, you know, lots of different sort of categories. None of it, I should say, is generated by me. I just got annoyed it's so sporadic, so I'm just trying to bring it into one place basically. - [Alex] That sounds like a good idea. Well, thank you so much. I mean, it's such a really interesting conversation, and just needs like so many practical just action really, bot just from you guys, but just from the whole sector just to sort it out it feels. - [Daryl] The first action should just be them to commit. Say it out, just, just say, "I'm gonna do this," and get it out in the open. - Yeah. - Because until they actually say that and do a little bit in the background, and a little bit over there, until they just publicly say, "We realize this is a problem. "We're gonna address it. "Join us on that journey." - [Alex] Yeah, well I'm saying that now from behalf of Arts Lancashire, we are committing and we are gonna do those things, and we're gonna encourage and try and support those organizations that we work with to do the same. So, thank you very much for your input. You know, it's been brilliant to talk to you and to listen to what you've got to say. Helena, would you like to say anything? - [Helena] It's just been amazing. I think what you said about your tribe, I think it's so important to keep these conversations going, isn't it, you know? The more people hear, the more they'll start thinking about how to make a difference. So yeah, thank you for having me. - [Alex] And thanks, Helena. Thanks for getting involved. It's been great to have you co-interviewing on this podcast. And it's really lovely to meet you both. - [Nickie] I do want to say actually we are quite fun. - [Daryl] I know! - [Alex] I totally know. I know we've had quite an in depth conversation, but, you know, I know that already. - [Nickie] I feel like, "Well, there's my soap box. "I better get off it now." - Ugh, yeah. - [Nickie] But we are, we are fun, I think it's because it is our passion. It's what we care about. We care about disability and we care about the work. But we are, we, yeah, you know, we do have a laugh, as well. - [Alex] It's been really lovely to talk to you and to meet you, as well. - Thank you. - Well, thank you for having us! - Yeah, thank you very much. - Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for listening to The Gathering. If you like this episode, let us know in the reviews and don't forget to share it with your friends. For show notes, links to all the organizations and initiatives mentioned in this episode, and much more, head over to www.artslancashire.org.uk/thegathering. If you want to make sure you don't miss the next episode of The Gathering podcast, subscribe to our podcast channel. You can also follow us on Twitter @artslancashire.